The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. 1. Questions to the First Minister

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Mohammad Asghar.

<p>Work Experience Placements</p>

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 1. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve access to work experience placements for secondary school pupils in Wales? OAQ(5)0647(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We continue to work with secondary schools and employers to help prepare young people for the world of work. This includes funding the Business Class project, delivered by Careers Wales in partnership with Business in the Community, which has established 81 school-business partnerships across Wales.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister, but, in previous years, when secondary school pupils were sent on placements to experience the world of work, it was the duty of Careers Wales to check that the employers and their workplaces were suitable, safe environments, and that legal requirements on insurance and risk assessment were met. However, your Government has forced Careers Wales to phase out this service due to budget cuts, thereby removing the opportunity for people to enjoy the benefit of work experience placements. Can the First Minister explain how stopping these safety checks due to budget cuts will promote and expand access to work experience placements in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: As I understand it, Gwynedd and Anglesey have taken the decision to withdraw from offering work experience placements for pupils. In other parts of Wales, schools and local authorities have worked together to find new solutions in response to the change of services provided by Careers Wales in 2015.

David Rees AC: First Minister, work experience is critical for young people, and those with learning difficulties and perhaps other neurological conditions, such as autism, which we’ll be discussing tomorrow, often find difficulty in getting out to the workplace. Now, there are some schools that put on assimilated work placements, and, for those, it’s wonderful because they are in a safe and familiar environment. But others need to go out and get that experience, because it helps them in their transition to adulthood. What more can the Welsh Government do to encourage employers to take on people with those conditions and learning difficulties, so that they can get that experience, so that they can get the transition into adulthood and be confident that they’re able to go out to the workplace?

Carwyn Jones AC: We encourage schools to look to create those links with employers. I think it is important for some youngsters to get that experience first in a more controlled environment that makes them more comfortable, and then, of course, look at getting work placements in the future. But there will be examples—the Member for Aberavon has already mentioned some—where schools are working proactively in order to provide placements for youngsters with particular learning needs.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Llywydd. It has been a great disappointment in my constituency as year 10 and 12 pupils hear that they won’t be going on work experience placements this year. I declare an interest as a father to one daughter in year 10, and another in year 12. Will the First Minister agree with this statement that Anglesey council officials certainly say is true, that what’s at the heart of this decision, beyond any doubt, is the decision taken by the Welsh Government to withdraw funding and therefore capacity from Careers Wales to check placements as they’ve done in the past?

Carwyn Jones AC: Ddim o gwbl. Y cynghorwyr, yn fy marn i, sydd i fod i redeg awdurdod lleol, nid swyddogion, ta beth. Ond dim ond Gwynedd ac Ynys Môn sydd wedi cymryd y penderfyniad hyn. Rwy’n gwybod bod awdurdodau eraill yn edrych ar ffyrdd newydd i sicrhau bod yna lefydd ar gael.

Caroline Jones AC: First Minister, the best way to improve access to work experience placements for Welsh pupils is to improve links between our schools and industry. While there are many good examples across the country, is it not enough. What plans does your Government have to ensure that every school in Wales maintains close links with local businesses?

Carwyn Jones AC: Most schools will want to do that anyway. As I said, most local authorities in Wales are working—and they’ve had plenty of notice—to see those links strengthened. They knew the changes were coming in 2015, but, despite that, of course, local authorities have been working proactively to maintain those links.

Rhianon Passmore AC: First Minister, the Welsh Government has a groundbreaking Fusion programme that contributes to many of the goals of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. The Fusion programme seeks to encourage and empower young people to take an active part in arts, culture and heritage, and equally includes innovative work experience placements. Additionally, the Fusion programme in 2017 includes the priorities of employment and skills. First Minister, isn’t this further evidence that the Welsh Government encourages a dynamic taste of the world of work from all quarters of Welsh life for Welsh schoolchildren, and how then can the Welsh Government build on this excellent best practice?

Carwyn Jones AC: We always look at good practice to see whether that practice can be extended across the whole of Wales. It’s right, of course, that young people have the opportunity not just to gain qualifications, but also to understand what the world of work requires and have a broad outlook on life. That’s what the Welsh baccalaureate is intended to deliver as well. But we always look at examples of good practice to see whether they can be extended.

<p>An Active Travel Network in Montgomeryshire</p>

Russell George AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on the development of an active travel network in Montgomeryshire? OAQ(5)0653(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the first stage of the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 has been completed, and a number of active travel routes have been identified in Montgomeryshire.

Russell George AC: Thank you, First Minister. I’m sure you will agree that the Newtown bypass will provide an opportunity to develop a meaningful active travel network for Newtown. Regrettably, Powys County Council were recently unsuccessful in securing funding from the local transport fund, which would have gone some way to securing the town’s aspirations to be an active travel town. Now, I understand the bid was supported as a project, but not funded. So, could I ask you, First Minister, to ask officials to take a fresh look at this bid, with a view to funding the scheme if additional funding can be made available?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I understand Powys will be launching the new Llanfyllin Safe Routes in Communities facility on Friday. That was made possible through allocated funding from the Welsh Government—an example of that funding being made available to Powys. The two Powys local transport fund schemes are at the top of our reserve list for 2017-18, as part of our wider work associated with the Newtown bypass, and we are looking at options to see how we could allocate some in-year funds to the Powys active travel bid for Newtown.

Lee Waters AC: Isn’t part of the problem, First Minister, that some Members seem to think that bypasses are part of active travel networks? Sixty per cent of all car journeys are for journeys of less than five miles, and an emphasis on everyday journeys is one of the key ways of making the active travel Act achieve its potential. In Carmarthenshire, the council’s draft strategy has an emphasis on sports cycling and on leisure cycling—

I’m sorry, I’m going to have to intervene. This question is about Montgomeryshire.

Lee Waters AC: I did preface my remarks, Llywydd, to talk about the Newtown bypass, which has just been referenced.

It’s stretching it slightly to talk about Carmarthenshire.

Lee Waters AC: Indeed. I’m talking about the way local authorities are implementing and interpreting this Act, and whether the First Minister, and the Welsh Government, will issue strong guidance to local authorities, to make sure the emphasis is on short journeys, practical journeys, and not bypasses.

Carwyn Jones AC: The Member should not get the idea that there is a plan to merge Montgomeryshire with Carmarthenshire—at this stage. The point that the Member makes is important, and he has been consistent in his view that it’s absolutely crucial to promote cycling as more than just recreation—that it is seen as an integral part of the transport system, if I can put it that way. That’s what the active travel Act was designed to do, and that’s why it’s so important that, where funding is available, then cycle routes, for example, are provided, when road schemes are in place. The Church Village bypass is an example of that. And it is something, of course, that we seek to promote through funding, and also through the legislation itself.

<p>Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders</p>

I now call for questions from the party leaders. The leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. It’s clear now that the failure of the Prime Minister’s cynical, opportunist snap election gamble has thrown the whole Brexit negotiating process into confusion, perhaps exacerbated by the fact that she’s appointed 16 Remainers to her Cabinet of 23. And, in particular, this throws perhaps more into question than previously the nature of our border controls post Brexit. I’m wondering where the Labour Party now stands in this process, because I’m sure the First Minister will have seen that both Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell have said that the Labour Party is formally committed to taking Britain out of the single market and the customs union, whereas Keir Starmer has said he wants to negotiate a new form of single market agreement, and Barry Gardiner, the shadow international trade Secretary, has criticised Mrs May for taking single market membership off the table right from the very beginning. So, can the First Minister tell me whether he is now a Corbynite or whether he is a Starmerite?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, what we do know from the election is the hard Brexit that is espoused and promoted by UKIP is dead. People were asked to vote on a particular version of Brexit—specifically asked to vote on that—by Theresa May, and she did not get that mandate. So, what happens next? We have put forward, together with Plaid Cymru, a White Paper that suggests a way forward as far as Brexit is concerned. I have today written to the Prime Minister, reminding her that it takes more than words when it comes to seeking engagement with the devolved Governments. I welcome the words of Guto Bebb, for example, where he recognises the reality of the situation—that a sustainable Brexit can only happen if the devolved Governments are fully part of that process, and I hope that the small group in Whitehall that have been trying to control this take note.

Neil Hamilton AC: I read, of course, the Government’s White Paper on Brexit, which, effectively, isn’t in favour of border controls at all in any meaningful sense. My interest in this is on the impact of unskilled and semi-skilled labour being imported in uncontrollable numbers and the effect that that has upon working class wages. Now, the Bank of England has published a substantial report on ‘The impact of immigration on occupational wages: vidence from Britain’, the conclusion of which was that a 10 per cent rise in the proportion of immigrants is associated with a 2 per cent reduction in pay in the semi- and unskilled services sector. I struggle to understand why the Labour Party, of all parties, is prepared to countenance a situation where working class wages are driven down so that, for many people, the minimum wage is the maximum wage.

Carwyn Jones AC: The greatest threat to people’s wages is continued austerity—that is the greatest threat. I wonder if he would make it clear what his position was on the minimum wage, for example—whether he supported its introduction by a Labour Government, and whether he supports the need for greater focus on policing the minimum wage, and whether he would see an increase in the minimum wage to the level of a living wage. Those are the ways to protect people. Yes, it is important to protect people, and not just our own people, but people from other countries, from exploitation, and that needs more resources to be put into the policing of that. But there’s no doubt that the greatest threat to wages is a Tory Government that is bent on austerity.

Neil Hamilton AC: I notice that the First Minister neatly sidesteps the question. UKIP did actually support the introduction of the minimum wage, and, certainly, we support policing it effectively, because the law of the land should be obeyed. And it’s no answer to the problem of wage compression to say that we will take strong action against employers who are breaking the law. What is of more concern is that the average wage rate at the bottom of the income scale is being driven down for more and more people. And there are hundreds of thousands of people who are on the breadline who are forced into even more precarious situations as a result of uncontrolled immigration. Surely, firm control of unskilled and semi-skilled migration from the European Union, which can be controlled from the rest of the world under existing law, is a vital necessity for ordinary working-class people.

Carwyn Jones AC: First of all, again, he misses the point about border control. If you want to have border control, you have a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. There is no other way of doing it, unless you want to put British border agency officials in the Republic’s airports and ports, and that is a strategy fraught with problems, if I can put it diplomatically. That situation has still not been properly resolved. But, for me, the issue of low wages is driven by the austerity we’ve see for the past seven years, the fact we haven’t seen real increases in pay, the fact that we’ve seen people who are in work lose in-work benefits. We used to say—and the Secretary of State got himself into trouble on this—to people, ‘If you get a job, your income will increase’. That is no longer the case because of the fact that those at the top of the income scale have received more money through tax cuts and those at the bottom have received less money through the reduction and loss of in-work benefits. That’s what the focus should be on—making sure that those people who are working hard, working long hours, get the support they deserve, and they haven’t had it over the last seven years.

The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: First Minister, the NHS is our most cherished public service. All of us rely on it and it’s the single largest spending commitment in the Welsh budget, which reflects its importance to our people. Are you satisfied with the financial governance of the NHS?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, I am. There are issue that arise every year from the boards, but they’ve been given a three-year timescale within which to operate when it comes to producing their budget. But, of course, we would always want to see more funds made available to the Welsh budget through the ending of austerity in Westminster.

Leanne Wood AC: On Friday, it was announced that four of the 10 NHS organisations have failed to break even over the three-year financial period. Now, we know that three health boards have been placed under targeted intervention, and a fourth is being monitored. You mentioned that you introduced three-year budgeting in order to try to solve those problems, but we are still seeing these deficits emerge over that three-year period. First Minister, under your watch, are NHS finances sound?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, they are. Four organisations out of 10 were unable to meet their three-year duty. We’ve been open about the particular challenges those organisations are facing, and it’s why they’ve all been escalated under our NHS intervention arrangements.

Leanne Wood AC: A situation where four out of seven health boards aren’t meeting your targets isn’t one that can be described as financially sound. This is about how the NHS is being managed, it’s about supporting the staff and the patients of the NHS by ensuring that the service is in good financial health. It’s about health boards meeting the statutory duties that you have set out.Now, in March, your health Secretary said that the four health boards in question would not be bailed out. He also said that he was, quote, ‘pretty certain that NHS services wouldn’t be cut as a result of these deficits’. Now, being pretty certain doesn’t fill me with confidence, First Minister. What we need today is a cast-iron guarantee. So, can you tell us: when will the NHS finances improve? Is it still the case that you won’t bail out struggling NHS health boards? And as the Government responsible for the Welsh NHS, will you guarantee that deficit repayment plans for these health boards won’t result in cuts to our health services?

Carwyn Jones AC: No services have suffered as a result of these deficits. We have ensured that these organisations have sufficient cash to meet their normal commitments, and we manage their deficits within the overall health budget, subject to audit confirmation. The overall health budget was balanced in 2016-17. Now, through the intervention arrangements, we are working closely with those organisations to address the governance, management and service issues that underpin their deficits and we will not shy away from taking firm action with these organisations if that is what is necessary.

Leanne Wood AC: No guarantees.

Leader of the opposition, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, one of the stories that came through at the general election and, because of the campaigning, didn’t get the coverage it deserved was the lack of this Government’s ability to meet its commitment from 2010 that all cancer patients in Wales would have a keyworker. Can you explain why, seven years on, so many cancer patients are not getting that key worker identified when they get the diagnosis in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: One of the messages of the general election was that people didn’t want the Welsh Conservatives. I mean, I’m fairly surprised he actually raises it. I do wonder how much more he can take of being replaced as a leader on programmes, but he asked a question about cancer key workers. That is something that we’re still working towards to make sure that everyone has that key worker. He will see that the amount of money that’s gone into cancer treatment has increased over the years.

Andrew RT Davies AC: You can have the pot shot, First Minister, but people would’ve listened and heard that you didn’t give an answer why people don’t get a key worker. So, you can carry on with the pot shots, but people who get a cancer diagnosis deserve all the assistance they can get, and as someone who’s lost family members, along with other Members in this Chamber, we welcomed that commitment that the Government made at that time in 2010. But as Macmillan has identified, at least a third of patients do not get that key worker when they get the diagnosis. It’s a simple question, First Minister, and instead of being flippant, can you give a serious answer as to when that target will be met?

Carwyn Jones AC: I believe I did give a serious answer, and like him, I’ve lost people close to me, and indeed, I’ve seen my wife deal with cancer. It affects so many of us, but the cancer implementation group, which is responsible for the delivery of the cancer delivery plan, has identified the key worker role as a priority. As such, work is being undertaken currently to develop a set of standards and associated measures to review the progress that health boards and trusts are making in the provision of key workers, as well as other priority issues. It’s also important to note that the cancer patient experience survey provides a good picture of the situation in Wales. No other major health condition has such a large-scale survey assessing patient experience, and we do know that the response has been good in terms of people’s experience of the treatment they have received. The 2016 survey results will be published later this year.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Again, on the second time of asking, I still have not got a date when cancer patients and people connected with cancer services will know when this commitment is going to be met. It is a fact that Public Health Wales have said it’s not mandatory for them to collect the data to identify where the shortfalls are in the system. So, you can read all you want from your script, First Minister—you made the commitment in 2010. Public Health Wales just say one basic point: it’s not mandatory to collect the data. How can you genuinely say that you know you’re progressing in meeting this target? I do put the question again to you: when will you hit that target here in Wales and will you now make it mandatory for Public Health Wales to gain those data so that we can see progress on meeting that goal? We support you in this measure—we want to see it met.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I can’t go beyond the answer I’ve already given to him, namely that that work is ongoing. He asks the question, ‘When will that work be complete?’—I will write to him with a date on that—he’s asked me that specific question—but this is something that we want to see implemented in the future.

<p>A No-cold-calling Nation</p>

Neil Hamilton AC: 3. What progress has been made towards Wales becoming a no cold calling nation? OAQ(5)0655(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the zones have been set up in the majority of Welsh local authorities. We are committed to making our communities safer and I would encourage local authorities to continue to introduce ways to stop cold calling to protect the most vulnerable people in society.

Neil Hamilton AC: I thank the First Minister for that reply. I don’t know whether he is aware of a poll that is being conducted by the debt charity called StepChange. This has discovered that 59 per cent of people report having received one cold call a week, and 8 per cent have had more than one call per day. And one of the principle concerns about this is these calls offering high-cost credit. About a third, apparently, received one of these calls every week, and one in eight has actually taken out high-cost credit with an average of £1,052 of extra borrowing taken out. This poses significant dangers for vulnerable people on low incomes, and I wonder if the First Minister can tell me what further progress the Government intends to make in the next 12 months towards ending this curse?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, we did provide funding in 2013 to increase the number of cold-calling zones in Wales. That’s helped to protect vulnerable people from scams. I know that some local authorities have also carried out that work. My own local authority in Bridgend, for example, ran a very successful campaign a few years ago informing people of what scams looked like—not just postal scams but online scams as well. They can be hugely believable, given the fact they will often use e-mails that look like e-mails from established companies, even though they are not. We will, of course, continue to work with the police and police and crime commissioners on issues including fraud crime.

Mike Hedges AC: I’m a strong and long-term supporter of no-cold-calling zones, and I’ve raised this several times in this Chamber as far too many of them target the very vulnerable, and far too many of the very vulnerable are taken advantage of. I have some very popular no-cold-calling zones in Swansea East. I’ve also noticed a growth, and I’m sure everyone else in this room has as they’ve been going around during election time, in the number of houses that say, ‘Cold callers not welcome’. I’m sure people have seen that on their travels. What I’m asking is: what can the Welsh Government do to help increase the number and size of no-cold-calling zones? Because a lot of the no-cold-calling zones, which are very popular, tend to cover a couple of hundred houses, whereas I’d really like the whole of Swansea to be covered by it—I’m not sure if my two colleagues representing the rest of Swansea do, but certainly the whole of Swansea East covered by it, because it is a nuisance. And yet, you can’t do anything about the people coming in by e-mail, but we ought to be able to stop people banging on doors, telling someone they’ve got a loose slate and then charging them tens of thousands of pounds.

Carwyn Jones AC: For all of us in this Chamber it’s always difficult to know whether ‘No cold calling’ means political canvassers as well. Although, I have noticed people putting on their doors ‘No canvassers’ as well as ‘No cold calling’. But it’s an important point. We will know of people who have been scammed in this way, particularly older people who feel particularly vulnerable. We do know that no-cold-calling zones have been set up in the majority of Welsh local authorities to reduce the number of cold callers, and we continue to work with local authorities to encourage them to set up more zones in the future.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Since 2005, my local authority has indeed been very proactive in ensuring the introduction of no-cold-calling zones. In fact, I was the cabinet member introducing them at the time. A joint initiative with North Wales Police and Conwy trading standards has now established over 1,300 zones, including the entire community of Trefriw. Your Government, as you say, has made several thousands of pounds available for this initiative, however 10 local authorities just haven’t bothered taking up the funding.Ninety-three per cent of people in a survey are not wanting doorstep sellers; 60 per cent have received uninvited visits from contractors, with 25 per cent experiencing repeat calls. So, what steps—I’ll repeat—is your Government taking to ensure no-cold-calling zones are robustly implemented across the whole of Wales in order to protect our most vulnerable and those living alone from what are often bogus callers and cowboy contractors?

Carwyn Jones AC: The first difficulty is we don’t have executive powers as a Government to enforce the zones. The Assembly does have some legislative competence, but it’s quite limited and limited to consumer protection. That means, of course, the local authorities have a particularly important role. She’s mentioned, of course, her own local authority, and we welcome the work that they have done. For those 10 local authorities that haven’t taken up the funding, it’s a matter for them, of course, to explain, and a matter to be taken up with them as to why it is that they feel that no-cold-calling zones are not appropriate for their area.

<p>Seaside Tourism in North Wales</p>

Darren Millar AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the importance of seaside tourism in north Wales? OAQ(5)0644(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Our coastal environment is a major attraction for many visitors who are drawn by the quality of our coastal landscape, wildlife and sea, and, of course, many of those seaside attractions are along the northern coast.

Darren Millar AC: There are many of those seaside towns in my own constituency that benefit from tourism, including Towyn, Kimmel Bay, Llanddulas and, indeed, Colwyn Bay. But one of the things that puts that tourism industry at risk is the risk of coastal flooding, and I notice the publication of a report by the Public Accounts Committee today that criticised this distinct lack of leadership on the part of the Welsh Government in securing improvements in coastal flood defences. The First Minister will know, because I’ve raised it with him on many occasions, that I’m very concerned about the Old Colwyn promenade in my own constituency, which has been pummelled by storms year after year, which has severely damaged the integrity of that promenade, which protects, of course, the A55 trunk road and the north Wales railway line. I’d be grateful, First Minister, if you could step up to the plate and take a lead on this issue to ensure that that work is done as a matter of priority within this Assembly term.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, first of all, in terms of the committee’s report, it’s not quite what it says, to my mind. It does make the quite valid point that there are many different organisations who all have a responsibility for flooding—some seven. The point that the report was trying to say was, ‘Well, if things go wrong, who then is responsible?’, and that’s a valid question that we will consider as part of the response to the committee’s report. It may need legislation to make sure that the situation is clear. For example, Members will know I was, a year and a half ago now, on the A55, where flooding had occurred. Ultimately it was a matter for Gwynedd Council, but it needed funding from Welsh Government, so we worked together to deliver that. But, clearly, there is an issue here that will need to be resolved in terms of: is the situation robust enough if we have that many organisations—and individuals, quite often—who are responsible for controlling flooding? And we’ll consider our response to that as part of our response to the committee’s report.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Rules and regulations emerging from the European Union have, of course, been mostly responsible for the transformation that we’ve seen in the quality of sea water and the cleanliness of our beaches and the fact that so many of our beaches in north Wales now have blue flags, which has been a very important factor in attracting tourism. As we are leaving the European Union, of course, and Brexit is on the way, what can we do to ensure that we safeguard those environmental standards? What will you, as the Welsh Government, do to ensure that we never go back to a situation, as it was in the past, where our seas and beaches were amongst the dirtiest in the whole of Europe?

Carwyn Jones AC: That’s quite right. There is no reason why we cannot retain the regulations that already exist and that’s something for Welsh Government and this Assembly to decide. But, no, we would not be in favour of reducing the standards there are at present. I can remember a time when the river going through the town where I was raised, Bridgend, flowed in different colours, depending on what had been chucked into the river—whether it be coal or lipstick—everything went into the river, and because of that, the river was red and green. Nobody wants to go back to that, but, of course, what’s important is that, although we may be leaving the European Union, it doesn’t mean to say that we have to change the rules here in Wales.

<p>Compulsory Voting</p>

Jeremy Miles AC: 5. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of compulsory voting? OAQ(5)0643(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We are not in favour of compulsory voting. As a Government, of course, we’ve taken a position that in Assembly elections we want to see 16 to 18-year-olds voting, but we’re not in favour of compulsory voting.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the First Minister for that answer. And on the subject of voting, I thank him for his leadership of the Welsh Labour election campaign, which, in contrast to that of the party opposite, was both strong and stable. [Interruption.] Another feature of the campaign was an increase in turnout, and yet one in three people did not vote. Compulsory voting is no substitute for political engagement or political education, but as well as being a right that people have fought for and died for, it can also be seen as a civic obligation that we owe one to another. As the Welsh Government and the National Assembly consider voting arrangements in the future, notwithstanding the Welsh Government’s position, will he ensure that the experience of Australia and Belgium is taken into full account, and that of other countries where that civic obligation has been enshrined in law?

Carwyn Jones AC: We will consider that. I have to say I sometimes consider compulsory voting to be a form of cop-out for politicians. It’s all our responsibility, collectively, to increase turnout. We’ll never get—. They don’t even get to 100 per cent in the countries where there’s compulsory voting. What I saw on Thursday was a huge increase in the numbers of young people voting. At 10 o’clock on the Thursday morning, I could see that something unusual was happening in terms of the turnout. So, from my perspective, it was marvellous to see young people coming out to vote in the numbers that they did. I hope that continues in the future, because it was never good for society for a view to take hold that older people vote and younger people don’t. I’m glad that younger people have found their voice.

David Melding AC: First Minister, can I say that, like you, I’m glad that the voter turnout last Thursday was much closer to the historic trend that we’ve had in the United Kingdom, and that is something that we should all be very grateful for? One thing that’s always struck me as very peculiar is why we vote on a Thursday. There have been a couple of occasions in the twentieth century where general elections were held on Tuesdays, but why don’t we vote, like most countries around the world, over the weekend? That, surely, would be a great way of ensuring that as many citizens as possible have every opportunity to get to the voting booth.

Carwyn Jones AC: There’s no reason why it should be a Thursday. In fact, there’s no reason why we shouldn’t look at weekend voting. Sunday is still problematic. I don’t think the DUP will be pressing for that in the discussions that they have with the Conservative Government, as sabbatarians. [Laughter.] Indeed, the western isles of Scotland—people there will have a view on that. I think Sunday voting, therefore, is still difficult in some parts of the UK, but there’s no reason why people shouldn’t vote on a Saturday, for example, when most people are not in work and when voting might be easier. That’s something to consider as an institution in the years to come.

Simon Thomas AC: We have no figures, of course—although some figures have been quoted, there are no figures on how many young people voted last week. But like you, I did feel that more young people were turning out to vote in west Wales, and I’m particularly pleased that the youngest Member of Parliament, Ben Lake, is a Member for Plaid Cymru in Ceredigion. Certainly, Ben Lake got a lot of young farmers helping him out during his campaign. But, in looking at how we keep this young vote, and short of compulsory voting, what else can we do? Yes, voting on different days, perhaps, but isn’t it also time to break this link that you have to cast your ballot in one place? In an electronic age, shouldn’t it be possible for anyone to vote wherever they are in Wales for the candidate that they prefer?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, there is no reason, in principle, why digital voting shouldn’t take place. There are some practical security issues, I understand, which would make it very difficult at the moment, but there’s no reason why, ultimately, it shouldn’t happen. At one time, everybody in this Chamber saw the voting day as the day on which you had to get everybody out to vote, but that’s not the case any longer, as so many people vote through the post. So, in principle, there’s no reason why the system should remain the same, because one of the things I did notice last week was the fact that young people are being inspired to vote because of social media. That’s where they get their news, and groups of them decided to vote. So, it’s all important that we consider, when the time is right, digital voting.

<p>Japanese Knotweed</p>

Mike Hedges AC: 6. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's use of psyllids in tackling Japanese knotweed? OAQ(5)0641(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Progress has been made on the biocontrol of Japanese knotweed, including psyllid stocks from Japan. There are now better survival rates for the psyllids, as well, and that’s a key development in tackling knotweed. There are further releases of psyllids that are planned for the course of this year.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the First Minister for his answer? As people are well aware both here, and definitely in Swansea, Swansea is very much the capital of knotweed. It’s not a title we particularly like. But it’s a huge problem within my constituency and the neighbouring constituency. I’m very pleased as to the success of the initial trial, but I wouldn’t be fulfilling my duty as a Swansea Member without saying: can I ask that, if further sites are being considered, sites in Swansea, which is one of the worst affected areas in Wales, are considered for these new sites?

Carwyn Jones AC: As the Member knows, the trial site in Swansea is located in his constituency at Llansamlet, along a 450m section of the Nant Bran stream. Care has to be taken, of course, when releasing another non-native species to control an existing non-native species, as the Australians will tell you, given the plagues of frogs that they quite often—biblical, almost, plagues of frogs that they experience there. So, this has been done in a controlled way. We hope, of course, that this will be a successful way of controlling knotweed by a natural predator without, of course, that creating imbalance elsewhere in terms of biodiversity.

Paul Davies AC: As we know, Japanese knotweed is a plant that has a negative impact not just on other plants, but on buildings, and, as a result, it can prevent people from getting a mortgage or insurance on their property. Given the damage caused by this plant, what is the Welsh Government’s overarching strategy when it comes to tackling this problem? Do you also agree with me that Natural Resources Wales should be responsible for tackling this issue? Because I understand that NRW has no statutory powers at all in order to tackle this particular plant.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, first of all, there is a group—a project board—that has been established to deal with knotweed. We are working with partners across the United Kingdom on that. The Centre for Agriculture and Bioscience International, which is a non-profit-making institute, is carrying out scientific and research work on behalf of the project board at the moment. So, work is ongoing and Natural Resources Wales is part of that work.

Caroline Jones AC: First Minister, it’s estimated that around £200 million has been spent in the UK alone trying to tackle Japanese knotweed, which causes around £170 million-worth of damage to property each year. The psyllid trials are very promising, but, if the insect can successfully establish itself in the UK, it will only tame knotweed, not eradicate it. What more can the Welsh Government do to support Swansea University in their search to find ways to ensure that knotweed is eradicated and no longer threatens the property of our constituents?

Carwyn Jones AC: We have supported a two-year trial at Swansea, examining the chemical and mechanical control of Japanese knotweed. Discussions are taking place at the moment with the university to improve our control advice in line with those findings.

<p>Mental Health Services for Young People</p>

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 7. Will the First Minister make a statement on mental health services for young people? OAQ(5)0656(FM)W

Carwyn Jones AC: By now, we have seen the impact of the programme of improvements that we are taking forward as part of the delivery of ‘Together for Mental Health’, supported by an additional £8 million per annum for children and young people’s mental health services.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I was particularly pleased some weeks ago to have a conversation with Laura Burton, a young woman from Anglesey who volunteers her time for Time to Change and is doing excellent work in pressing for improvements in mental health services. I agreed with her that we certainly need to do more to change the attitudes of young people towards mental health, but also that an increase in awareness has to go hand in hand with investment in resources and adequate funding. Now, in terms of resources, does the First Minister agree with me that it’s unacceptable that Anglesey has been left without a consultant psychiatrist at all for adults between the ages of 18 and 65—something that affects Laura, like many other people? And does the First Minister also agree that, in terms of awareness, we need to do far more to invest in mental health education for young people in order to raise awareness among that group?

Carwyn Jones AC: There is a counsellor in every secondary school in order to assist, of course, but some young people could do with more support. That is why we’ve invested £8 million per annum into CAMHS. So, if we look at the Betsi Cadwaladr area, including Ynys Môn, of course, we know that the number awaiting an assessment has gone down from 669 to 90 in a year, a reduction of 86 per cent, and that is what the investment has given us.

Angela Burns AC: First Minister, the ‘Making Sense’ report was published in tandem with the Making Sense initiative, which is supported by the High Needs Collaborative and the Wales Observatory on Human Rights of Children and Young People. This report highlighted that, for many young people, support for the transition into adult services is non-existent. In fact, young people say that they are ill-prepared for the way that adult services operate, which is quite different to the way that CAMHS operates. It’s a scenario borne out by many cases that have come to me in my own constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. First Minister, can you clarify what the Welsh Government intends to do to ensure that that transition, which is a tricky time for children becoming young people and young people becoming adults in all sorts of different areas, from education through to health services, is particularly looked at and reviewed to help those who need the support of professionals, such as adult services and children and adolescent mental health?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, that transition is important, but we have ensured that the funding has been made available for third sector partners to ensure that young people with the most severe mental illnesses are supported into social, education, and employment opportunities. But, of course, with regard to the extra CAMHS funding, what that is designed to do, of course, is make sure that young people get the help that they need at the time they need it, so they don’t have to rely—some will of course, but they don’t have to rely on adult mental health services in the future.

<p>Health Services in Pembrokeshire</p>

Paul Davies AC: 8. Will the First Minister make a statement on the delivery of health services in Pembrokeshire? OAQ(5)0640(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: My priority is to provide the people of Pembrokeshire with health services that deliver the best possible outcomes for patients.

Paul Davies AC: I’m sure you’d agree with me, First Minister, that it’s important that emergency health services are located as close as possible to the population. A retired consultant from Withybush hospital has reviewed the number of mortalities among babies in Pembrokeshire, and the review shows that the situation has deteriorated since the maternity services were centralised in Glangwili hospital in Carmarthen. Given this review, is your Government willing to reconsider this issue and situation and consider reintroducing the special neonatal centre and ensure that paediatric services are available full time in Withybush?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, it would be very good if that consultant could give us those data so that we could study those data for accuracy. He hasn’t done so. That would be a great help. But we know that the royal college has said that the services in the Hywel Dda area are safe.

Simon Thomas AC: But the situation with overnight paediatric care is supposed to be temporary, where it’s been removed from Withybush. That’s not supposed to be the permanent position, so when will we see that overnight paediatric service put back in place?

Carwyn Jones AC: We know that the health board will be going out to consultation before long with specialists in the area in order to secure sustainable services. But it’s true to say that this is temporary, and not permanent.

<p>Equality for Older Women in the Cynon Valley</p>

Vikki Howells AC: 9. What action is the Welsh Government taking to promote equality for older women in the Cynon Valley? OAQ(5)0652(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We are strongly committed both to supporting older people and to promoting equality between genders. That is reflected, of course, in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the strategy for older people, which supports action to address issues facing both women and men in later life.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, First Minister. I know you have written previously to the then Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, calling for a review of the miners’ pension scheme. I recently met with campaigners from the UK miners pension scheme association, who highlighted to me how the current workings of the scheme badly affect miners’ widows, in particular, with some, for example, receiving just £10 a week. Would you write to the UK Government again, highlighting the way that reform of the scheme could not only benefit miners, but also promote economic equality for miners’ widows in my constituency of Cynon Valley and elsewhere in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: I met with representatives from the south Wales National Union of Mineworkers a few weeks ago, and they outlined, again, strongly, the case for a review. We will be writing to the newly elected UK Government, requesting it to consider a review of the scheme. As a Government, we have indicated our support for a review of the current arrangements for the surpluses of the mineworkers pension scheme, as Members will know—that’s already been said in Plenary. I wrote to the trade unions this February to reiterate our support for a review.

David Melding AC: First Minister, many older women have a problem with mobility—they are quite frail—and we need to shape certain public policies with that mind. For instance, with transport, the improvement in bus services, free bus travel, et cetera, is a help, but really we need to focus on things like community transport schemes as well, which allow people who would otherwise be excluded from at least easy transportation the right to access a whole range of services.

Carwyn Jones AC: That’s correct, and that’s why we work with local authorities and with bus and train operators to make sure that services are accessible. For example, as part of the work for the south Wales metro, accessibility of trains and stations will be an important part of the development of that project.

<p>The UK General Election</p>

Michelle Brown AC: 10. What assessment has the First Minister made of the impact that last week's UK General Election will have on the Welsh Government's education policy? OAQ(5)0657(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Education is devolved, and our priorities are set out in ‘Taking Wales Forward’.

Michelle Brown AC: Okay. Thank you for that, First Minister. Labour’s education policies included the abolition of tuition fees and the reintroduction of maintenance grants—something that we would actually support in UKIP in respect of STEM students. Do you have any intention of implementing this in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, that was on the basis of a Labour Government being elected and providing us with the money to enable us to look at doing that. That has not happened, yet, and when that happens, we will of course want to see how we can ensure that students in Wales are no worse off than those in England, as we’ve done for the past number of years under successive Governments.

Mark Reckless AC: Will the First Minister reconsider the future curriculum for Wales and the extent to which it will be based on changes that we’ve already seen in Scotland in light of both the declining trend in Scottish PISA results and the decline in support for the SNP, who have overseen that curriculum?

Carwyn Jones AC: We haven’t just taken the Scottish model and implemented it in Wales; the model will be implemented to ensure it is appropriate to Wales. It’s right that we should look at changing the curriculum in order to make sure that it provides young people with the best education possible.

Thank you, First Minister.

2. 2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement an announcement, and I call on the leader of the house—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There’s only one change to business for this week. I’ve reduced the time allocated to tomorrow’s questions to the Counsel General. Business for the next three weeks is as shown on the business statement and announcement found among meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Leader of the house, could we have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for transport on two matters, if possible, please? One is about the maintenance of the A48 running through the Vale of Glamorgan. I have raised this on several occasions with you, and it is now becoming ridiculous that we have collapsed manholes and we have potholes on a main A road that is the main link between Bridgend and Cardiff, which, as you will appreciate, is heavily used. I appreciate there are recent road markings that have been put down, which indicate maintenance as pending, but as a frequent user of this road, very often, the road markings come and go but no work happens in between. So, could we have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary as to what maintenance is planned for the summer period, so that when we do enter the winter months, we do see genuine improvement in the condition of that road?Secondly, the new road that is being built to improve Five Mile Lane is a welcome addition to the transport infrastructure in the Vale of Glamorgan. Obviously, there have been some considerable workings on the site to date, but there doesn’t seem to be any progress on the actual starting of the construction phase of the road. As I was led to believe, I think completion was due sometime next year. Could we have an update from the Cabinet Secretary as to how work is progressing? Has there been any movement in the timeline for completion of this project, so that we can be better informed as to how this £26 million project is developing?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, as Andrew R.T. Davies is well aware, of course, roles and responsibilities, as far as the roads in the Vale of Glamorgan—yes, there are some responsibilities in relation to Welsh Government, but, of course, now the Conservative-controlled Vale of Glamorgan Council is the key highway authority, and that’s also not just in terms of the A48 and roads off, but including Five Mile Lane. Now, the Welsh Labour Government has provided the funding, which I know you've welcomed, R.T. Davies, for the Five Mile Lane. And, also, it is the Vale of Glamorgan Council that is responsible for project managing Five Mile Lane. So, I’m sure you will seek an update from your colleagues on the Vale of Glamorgan Council.

Vikki Howells AC: Leader of the house, this week is Rare Chromosome Disorder Awareness Week, and it seems an appropriate point during which to pay tribute to the work of my constituent Amy Walker. Her son was born with an extremely rare genetic condition, and Amy is campaigning for a greater understanding of the daily struggles children and families like hers face. Could we have a statement from the Welsh Government on how it is supporting people with rare disorders, but also their families?In addition, cervical screening saves around 5,000 lives across the UK annually, so it is worrying that uptake is now at a 10-year low in Wales and that one in four women do not attend screening when invited. This week is Cervical Screening Awareness Week, so please could we have a statement from the Government on how it is ensuring women in Wales take up the screening that can potentially save lives?

Jane Hutt AC: Can I thank Vikki Howells for raising awareness again in this Chamber of those two all-important awareness weeks—first of all, the work that’s been done by the charity Unique to raise awareness and understanding of chromosome disorders? Obviously, in terms of the experience of your constituent, it is very important to recognise this is the fourth awareness week, and the Welsh Government is committed to improving services for people living with rare diseases such as chromosome disorders. Our rare diseases implementation plan was first published back in February 2015. That was a response to the UK strategy for rare diseases, and there’s progress against the plans being monitored by the rare diseases implementation group. That does include representation not only from Welsh Government and health boards, but also the patient group Genetic Alliance. That will be updated to ensure it remains fit for purpose.Also, on your second point, in terms of awareness of cervical screening, nearly eight out of 10 women in Wales attend regularly for their smear, but we know that coverage rates for last year saw a slight drop. We have to do more work to maintain and improve participation rates, and the screening engagement team of Public Health Wales is working with local public health teams, health boards and primary care clusters to consider cervical screening uptake in each area. There is a pilot programme also looking at the future implementation of HPV testing, but I think as far as cervical screening is concerned, we have to look at where the uptake is lowest.

Neil McEvoy AC: Minister, in March 2017 the accounts of Natural Resources Wales were not given a clean bill of health. It related to a timber contract given out over 10 years when the usual length of contract was five years. The company that was given the contract did not apply for the tender. The chief executive of Natural Resources Wales told the Public Accounts Committee that there had been a full business case to justify the decision, and then it turned out in the following meeting that the so-called business case did not contain a single financial figure—not one. He then said that it wasn’t a business case. There’s no evidence, we’re told, of value for money, and there are question marks on the lawfulness of the contract process.So, given all these concerns, and especially the concern in the industry itself, how on earth can the chief executive of Natural Resources Wales be allowed to retire when there are so many questions to answer?

Jane Hutt AC: This is a very inappropriate question, I would say, Llywydd, but I would also say there is a role for the Public Accounts Committee, which of course, under the chairmanship of Nick Ramsay, has examined this issue, particularly in relation to the contract that NRW was responsible for.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Leader of the house, last week our very own Ann Jones received the prestigious gold medal award from the National Fire Protection Association in the US for her work in making sure that Wales was the first country to make fire sprinklers mandatory in all new-build houses. Leader of the house, will you firstly join with me and many others in congratulating Ann on her amazing achievement, but also in light of this issue being back on the agenda, could we have a statement by the Welsh Government on progress being made in improving domestic fire safety in Wales?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I’m sorry that I don’t think Ann Jones is in the Chamber at the moment to hear me add my congratulations to those of Hannah Blythyn to Ann Jones for her recent award from the National Fire Protection Association. This is important, as we recognise, and I think this is shared across the Chamber, this recognition of Ann’s achievements. It’s an international organisation, and for those of us who have been here since Ann started on her journey to secure the Domestic Fire Safety (Wales) Measure 2011, it’s a recognition of Ann’s unwavering commitment to fire safety, and the impact and influence that Ann Jones has had on fire safety in Wales.

We should have co-ordinated the timing of the chairing of this session slightly better, to be frank.

Jane Hutt AC: It will be on the record, Llywydd.

It is on the record, and my congratulations also to Deputy Presiding Officer Ann Jones.

Darren Millar AC: Leader of the house, can we ask for a statement from the Minister for health and social services on security in Wales’s hospitals? I had an e-mail from a constituent just a few days ago who unfortunately is a cancer patient at Glan Clwyd Hospital, and he remarked about the fact that he was able to walk around the whole of the hospital site at the weekend, in and out of individual offices. He could have lifted patient records, computers, telephones—in fact, anybody could who wandered through the door. Obviously, this is a concern, and I think it’s incumbent upon the Welsh Government to ensure that patient records in particular are properly protected in our hospitals, particularly over the weekends when those offices may be vacant.

Jane Hutt AC: Darren Millar does raise an important point, which I’m sure he will be raising with Betsi Cadwaladr health board. Of course, this is something that we take very seriously in terms of security on sites, particularly in relation to patient confidentiality and, indeed, staff and patient safety.

Adam Price AC: Leader of the house, I was wondering if you could say whether Government colleagues have indicated to you yet when we can expect the statement on the Circuit of Wales that we’ve been promised by the First Minister before the end of the month—[Interruption.] Would the honourable Member for Blaenau Gwent—? If he has anything to say, he can get up and say it—

Let me tell the honourable Member—who’s not particularly honourable, as no Member in this Chamber, to repeat myself, is an honourable Member—but, yes, please, the business Minister requires no help from other Ministers in answering business questions. Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Llywydd. If the leader of the house could update us on when we can expect that announcement. And, in that context, is it possible for the Government to correct the record in relation to a number of written answers that I’ve received from the Government that, it has subsequently emerged, are inaccurate? In one instance, I asked about when the Government was informed by the auditor general of his intention to publish the report on the Circuit of Wales. I was told the Government was informed on 13 April. It subsequently emerged they were verbally told for the first time on 10 March, and in writing on 17 March, six weeks before that.I also asked whose idea it was to suggest an 80 per cent guarantee for the project. I was told it was the company that suggested it on 15 April. It’s subsequently emerged it was the Government that suggested it a week earlier. I received a letter from the Minister correcting the first set of questions, but that hasn’t been shared with Members, and of course the inaccurate record still stands, therefore, in the written questions. And in terms of the other issue, it was implicitly confirmed to the BBC yesterday that the account that I was given was inaccurate.I think it is important that, before we have the statement from the Minister, Members have access to the accurate information and, indeed, not just the statement that we’ll hear in Plenary, but also of course the Public Accounts Committee, which is meeting to discuss the auditor general’s report, I believe, on 26 June.

Jane Hutt AC: I would like to take the opportunity to fully respond in terms of an update on the Circuit of Wales and the questions and issues that Adam Price has raised. We have of course been working with the Heads of the Valleys Development Company over many years to find a way to make the Circuit of Wales project work. Now that the Heads of the Valleys Development Company has submitted its final supporting information, the Welsh Government is completing its comprehensive due diligence process on the Circuit of Wales proposal.Of course—and this has been exchanged, about the importance, which has been recognised—due diligence is an important part of that consideration in supporting any project. It’s an opportunity to ensure there’s a sustainable and robust business plan in place, fair sharing of risk between the private and the public sectors, and to examine the wider economic impact of the proposal. And, as has been said, again, once that work is completed, Cabinet will consider the project and we will announce a decision.The first formal proposal that included the idea of an 80 per cent guarantee for the Circuit of Wales project was set out in a document dated 15 April 2016. Various face-to-face, phone and e-mail discussions on the risks and legalities of the project took place over a number of months prior to this date between officials and other key organisations, including the Heads of the Valleys development company and their advisers, and the level of guarantee would have been part of those discussions. Indeed, I would also add that the First Minister has received correspondence from yourself and will reply in due course.

Mark Isherwood AC: I call for two statements. First, to add my voice to the calls for a Cabinet Secretary for health statement on cervical screening, in this Cervical Screening Awareness Week. We know that cervical screening prevents up to 75 per cent of cervical cancers from developing, but uptake in Wales is at a 10-year low, and diagnosis levels are worryingly high. You referred rightly to the need to target the areas where the problem is greatest. Across Wales, only 70.4 per cent of cervical screening coverage occurs within three and a half years for 25 to 64-year-olds. The lowest level is at 69.5 per cent in Cardiff and the Vale, then 70.9 in Betsi Cadwaladr, and 73.6, the highest level, in Powys Teaching. There are still more than a quarter of women between 25 and 64 missing out on this, and it’s not much better over five years either.We must surely encourage women to talk to friends, mothers and daughters about the steps they can take to reduce their risk of cervical cancer. And fathers and brothers and uncles and grandfathers, as well as women, to talk to our loved ones, because we can’t afford to see cervical screening attendance fall any further. I hope you will expand on your earlier statement and encourage the Minister to provide a statement accordingly.My second and final call is for a statement ahead of Father’s Day next Sunday—and I congratulate every father here and hope they enjoy their day—on the role and support for fathers in Wales. The vision of the UK think tank, the Fatherhood Institute, is for a society giving all children a strong and positive relationship with their father and any father figures, supporting both mothers and fathers as earners and carers, and preparing boys and girls for a future shared role in caring for children. The 2017 family law manifesto calls for the promotion of responsible shared parenting, and encouraging best outcomes for children and families. In Scotland last year, Fathers Network Scotland, supported by the Scottish Government, celebrated Year of the Dad, celebrating fatherhood and the importance of fathers in child development and parenting, and calling on services and employers to support dads, embrace family-friendly inclusive practice, and acknowledging that today’s father can be single or married, externally employed or a stay-at-home dad, gay or straight, and may not even be the biological father. They could be grandfathers, uncles, foster fathers, adoptive fathers, or step fathers, but much is now expected of them.But despite this, and I’ll conclude here, the Centre for Social Justice’s 2016 annual fatherhood survey found that 47 per cent of all UK fathers felt their role wasn’t valued by society, 46 per cent of the lowest income fathers reported a lack of good fatherhood role models, and new fathers are crying out for better social and emotional support, rather than being told to man up, with just 25 per cent of dads saying there’s enough support to help them play a positive role in family life. Ahead of tonight’s launch of the Welsh Dad Survey’s 2017 results at the cross-party group on fathers and fatherhood, I would welcome your agreement to look at what happened in Scotland and see how we might take forward a programme of support in Wales.

Jane Hutt AC: I’m glad that Mark Isherwood again has followed on from Vikki Howell’s question about new ways of raising awareness about the importance of cervical screening. Just to add that I made the point about the way in which local primary care clusters are working with public health teams to consider uptakes, screening uptake, particularly in the areas where there is the lowest uptake. And they’re looking, for example, at social media activity, which will be a new way of raising awareness, but you also add the importance of the roles that parents, fathers, brothers can play as well in terms of raising awareness of this vital screening programme.You’ve given a very positive profile for the role of fathers in advance of Father’s Day on Sunday.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Leader of the house, may I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health on free prescriptions in Wales and medicine cost management in the NHS in Wales also? The cost of free prescriptions was £593 million in 2015. However, the cost of prescribing some drugs is far higher than the price at which they can be obtained across the counter in supermarkets. The cost to the NHS in Wales for prescribing paracetamol, for example, was over £5 million last year. While I recognise that the Welsh Government is not going to change its policy on free prescriptions, could I ask the Cabinet Secretary for health to look at ways that readily available treatments, such as paracetamol, can be issued without prescription, thereby reducing the cost to the NHS, and releasing much-needed funds for other NHS services?And there is another area, which is every one adult in four is obese in Wales, and almost 60 per cent are overweight, according to the Welsh health survey of 2015. And I think that itself takes adulthood into diabetes, which was costing a surgery, or a doctor, £5 per month, per medicine, only five years ago. Now, at the moment, the cost is well over £35 a month. And the way the numbers are increasing in obesity and diabetes, I think we are heading for a big tsunami of financial management lack in the NHS in Wales, unless we do something about it. Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I’m not quite sure where we’re going with your questions, Mohammad Asghar, except to say I can absolutely assure you we will not be changing our policy on free prescriptions, which not only has mitigated against the austerity measures of your Conservative Government over the last seven years, but also enables us to treat those who suffer the most health inequalities in Wales.

Nick Ramsay AC: Can I firstly concur with the earlier comments, made by the Member for Carmarthen east, on the Circuit of Wales? We are going to be looking at this on the Public Accounts Committee later this month, so, clearly, as Chair of that, I will be holding back on my views until then. However, it would be appropriate, I think, for us to have a decision in the wake of our committee deliberations as soon as possible, so we can have some clarity on what has been a very long-running saga, it seems to be—going for, well, as long as I can remember now. And I think the company, and the public, would appreciate that.Secondly, this morning, leader of the house, I attended the Agricultural Law Association’s inaugural Wales breakfast meeting, hosted by Simon Thomas. The ALA were founded in 1975 and provide invaluable legal advice and support to their members, and it was good to welcome them to the Assembly; I know they want to increase their presence in Wales.These are, clearly, uncertain times for our farming community, leader of the house, with the Brexit process under way, the loss of young people from the industry, and, of course, the ongoing issue of bovine TB. Will the Welsh Government undertake to work closely with the ALA, and, indeed, the farming unions, to reassure our farmers in Wales? And perhaps we could have a statement, at an appropriate point, in this Chamber, or maybe a debate, on ways that we can support our farming industry, both traditionally and perhaps looking at more innovative ways. Because I think this is a vital aspect of the Welsh economy that does need to be supported and nourished over the years to come.

Jane Hutt AC: We note the point that you made regarding the Circuit of Wales, Nick Ramsay.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Jane Hutt AC: And, on your second point, well I’m sure that was a very important meeting this morning of the Agricultural Law Association. I think it’s very important that we also take the opportunity to reflect on your point that it is going to be very difficult—it is currently very difficult for the farming community—and, of course, the Welsh Government and the Cabinet Secretary are working very closely, not just with the farming unions, but with partners. So, I hope that you will join us, as a Welsh Labour Government, in calling for a longer term commitment from the UK Government to make good on promises made during the referendum campaign that Wales would not lose a single penny as a result of the UK leaving the EU.

Thank you. And, finally, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Well, talking about making good on promises, leader of the house, it’s about nine months now since the issue of woodchip fires, and the illegal dumping of woodchip, was raised in this Chamber. It’s an issue that particularly affects my region. In all fairness, the Cabinet Secretary said that she was taking this seriously, in recognising the insufficiency of both regulation and the resources to enforce the existing regulation, let alone new regulation. I’d be very grateful if you could ask for a statement from her department, updating us on progress, on the areas of regulation that need reform, the evidence that’s underpinned the decisions that she is coming to at this stage, and what progress is being made on perhaps even early drafts of improved regulations that will help her prevent this serious issue, particularly in my region, happening again—appearing again.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Suzy Davies, for that. I will ask the Cabinet Secretary to update us, as she promised to do, in terms of officials looking at this. I know the adverse impact of woodchip fires is something that has been experienced across Wales, and not just in your region.

Thank you very much, leader of the house.

3. 3. Statement: The Tax Policy Framework

Item 3 on the agenda is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government on the tax policy framework, and I call on Mark Drakeford to introduce the statement.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. The onset of tax devolution has inevitably taken a great deal of the time of the National Assembly. In 2015, responsibility for non-domestic rates was transferred to Wales. In March 2016, the Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act 2016 reached the statute book. In December of last year, a new fiscal framework was agreed with the Treasury. Last month, the Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Act 2017 received Royal Assent. Next week, landfill disposal tax will reach Stage 3 proceedings in the scrutiny process. Over the summer, Bangor University will be working on the first independent assessment of the Welsh Government’s tax forecasts. By 1 October of this year, I will announce the first set of rates and bands for the land transaction tax and the landfill disposals tax. At the start of April next year, the Welsh Revenue Authority will be in practical operation, collecting and managing those taxes in Wales. The intention is that the process of partial devolution of income tax will begin in April 2019.Dirprwy Lywydd, ar y pwynt hwnnw, pan fydd yr amserlen helaeth hon wedi cyrraedd ei chasgliadau, bydd penderfyniadau a wneir yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn llunio’r polisi a’r camau gweithredu ymarferol i godi gwerth £5 biliwn o refeniw i sefydlu ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, a natur y gymdeithas yr hoffem fod. Mae arfer gorau rhyngwladol, a gymeradwywyd gan yr OECD, yn awgrymu y dylid cyflawni cyfrifoldebau ar y raddfa hon o fewn fframwaith polisi clir, a gyhoeddir yn agored i ddinasyddion, yn ein holl wahanol ffurfiau, gydag eglurder ynghylch y dull a ddefnyddir—yn ein hamgylchiadau ni, gan Lywodraeth Cymru wrth ymdrin â threthi Cymru.Dirprwy Lywydd, gadewch imi gofnodi eto y ffaith nad yw’r Llywodraeth hon yn gweld dim atyniadau o gwbl yn economi dreth isel, gyflog isel, fuddsoddiad isel, ddidrugaredd y dychymyg neo-ryddfrydol. Trethi yw'r pris mynediad y mae pob un ohonom yn ei dalu i fyw mewn cymdeithas wâr. A, Dirprwy Lywydd, mae pob un oedolyn yng Nghymru—a llawer o blant, hefyd—yn drethdalwyr, ac mae ein dinasyddion tlotaf yn aml iawn, ac yn llawer rhy aml, yn talu cyfran uwch mewn treth o’u hincwm annigonol na'r rhai sydd â mwy o arian nag a fydd byth ei angen arnynt. Dyna pam mae trethi hefyd yn fuddsoddiad yn ein dyfodol ar y cyd. Mae’r hyn yr ydym yn dibynnu arno heddiw’n ddyledus iawn i’r trethi a dalwyd yn y gorffennol gan ein rhieni a’n neiniau a’n teidiau. Mae'r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus hyn yn fudd sy'n diffinio ein cymdeithas ac yn tanategu ei gwerthoedd. Ni fyddent yn bosibl heb drethiant. Dylai trethi da fod yn effeithlon ac yn effeithiol, gan gynhyrchu’r budd mwyaf posibl am eu cost, a dylent gydnabod sefyllfa Cymru, o fewn y Deyrnas Unedig a bod yn gydnaws â fframwaith trethiant y DU a'r un rhyngwladol ehangach.Mae'r fframwaith polisi treth, y mae'r Llywodraeth wedi’i gyhoeddi, yn adeiladu ar y pum egwyddor a nodwyd yn flaenorol ar gyfer trethi yng Nghymru, sef y dylai trethiant godi refeniw i gefnogi gwasanaethau cyhoeddus mor deg ag y bo modd; y dylai trethiant helpu i gyflawni amcanion cyllidol a pholisi ehangach, gan gynnwys swyddi a thwf economaidd; y dylai trethiant fod yn syml, yn glir a sefydlog; y dylid datblygu trethiant drwy ymgysylltu â threthdalwyr a rhanddeiliaid yn fwy cyffredinol; ac y dylai trethiant gyfrannu'n uniongyrchol at nod Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 o greu Cymru fwy cyfartal.Bydd cyfres newydd Cymru o bwerau treth yn sicrhau bod gan bobl yma ddewis go iawn—am y tro cyntaf—am lefel y trethi a delir ac am ansawdd a nifer y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a ddatganolir. Roedd maniffesto fy mhlaid yn cynnwys ymrwymiad i beidio â chynyddu treth incwm yn ystod oes y Cynulliad hwn. Mater i'r pleidiau gwleidyddol fydd amlinellu eu cynlluniau ar gyfer cyfraddau treth cyn etholiadau nesaf y Cynulliad yn 2021. Yn y tymor Cynulliad hwn, byddwn yn ystyried yn ofalus cyfraddau treth eraill a'u heffeithiau ar y cyd, er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn parhau i gynhyrchu digon o refeniw i ariannu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, tra'n parhau i fod yn deg a chefnogi twf economaidd.Gall trethiant hefyd gyfrannu, fel y gwyddom, at ddylanwadu ar ymddygiad. Byddwn yn ystyried a ellir cyflwyno trethi newydd i Gymru mewn ffordd effeithlon i weithredu ochr yn ochr â'n harfau polisi presennol neu newydd. Mae trafodaeth ar drethi newydd wedi cael ei threfnu yn amser y Llywodraeth i gael ei chynnal cyn diwedd tymor yr haf hwn.Dirprwy Lywydd, bydd y dreth trafodiadau tir a’r dreth gwarediadau tirlenwi’n cael eu casglu a'u rheoli gan Awdurdod Cyllid Cymru, sy'n dod yn weithredol yn 2018. Bydd yr awdurdod yn gweithio mewn partneriaeth ag awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru ac awdurdodau treth eraill yn y Deyrnas Unedig i greu darlun cynhwysfawr o ddarparu gwasanaethau treth, cydymffurfiaeth a datblygu polisi treth. Bydd yn gweithio i gydlynu gweithgarwch er budd trethdalwyr.I gyflwyno polisi treth i Gymru, bydd angen ymagwedd gadarn, gyson a gwybodus. Prif dasg Llywodraeth Cymru yn y Cynulliad hwn, rwy’n credu, fydd ymgorffori'r trefniadau treth newydd ac adeiladu’r sail dystiolaeth fel y gallwn ddeall beth yw’r ffordd orau inni ddefnyddio ein pwerau trethi yn y dyfodol. Bydd hyn yn golygu bod angen mewnbwn gan amrywiaeth eang o bartïon â diddordeb—gan unigolion, busnesau, mudiadau’r trydydd sector ac, wrth gwrs, gan Bwyllgor Cyllid y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ei hun. Bydd barn arbenigwyr treth a gweithwyr proffesiynol eraill yn bwysig i'r gwaith hwn, ond bydd hefyd yn bwysig clywed yn uniongyrchol gan ddinasyddion ledled Cymru am yr hyn y maent yn ei feddwl am lefel a graddau codi refeniw a threthu yng Nghymru. I ysgogi’r ymgysylltu a’r trafod hwnnw, mae cynllun gwaith, sy'n nodi'r meysydd blaenoriaeth ar gyfer y flwyddyn i ddod â rhai materion ymchwil mwy hirdymor i lywio polisi treth yn y blynyddoedd i ddod, wedi cael ei gyhoeddi ochr yn ochr â'r fframwaith polisi treth.Rwyf hefyd wedi ymrwymo i broses flynyddol ar gyfer polisi treth yng Nghymru. Cyhoeddir penderfyniadau am y polisi treth ochr yn ochr â chyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru, gan adlewyrchu'r cysylltiad uniongyrchol rhwng trethi a'r adnoddau sydd ar gael i ariannu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus Cymru.Dirprwy Lywydd, our tax powers enable us, for the first time, to develop an approach to taxation which reflects the needs and circumstances of Wales. The publication of the tax policy framework and work plan is the beginning of this process. I look forward to hearing the views of Members in this Chamber today and to working with Members and the people of Wales in coming years as our tax powers develop. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I thank the Cabinet Secretary for bringing forward this statement today and for advance sight, indeed, of the tax policy framework document. Rest assured I will try to steer clear of any dog-eat-dog, neo-liberal comments—not usually my style, but I suppose there’s always a first time—but, in the case of this document, there was a lot here that we can agree with and, of course, has to happen as taxes are switched off at the UK level.Can I also compliment the Cabinet Secretary or whoever drafted the foreword of this document? [Interruption.] Maybe it was the Cabinet Secretary. The opening is worthy of Shakespeare, I think; it does read like a Shakespearian sonnet. Someone clearly has a great love of devolved taxes, and it’s good to know that devolved fiscal policy is not always as dry as it sometimes seems that it has to be. This reads very well, anyway—the opening foreword.The April 2018 date for the devolution of taxes that you mentioned—for the initial tranche, at any rate—is fast approaching, and clearly much work needs to be done in advance of this. There is now, as you say, a growing debate around the use of tax policy to boost the economy, and we welcome and wish to be part of that debate. We clearly are on a steep learning curve and need to rapidly develop, I think we’d all agree, our capacity in relation to fiscal expertise, particularly in the area of forecasting, not just in the mechanical workings of institutions like the Welsh Revenue Authority.Cabinet Secretary, the tax policy framework repeatedly states that there should be no change for change’s sake—an adage that you have pursued and that your predecessor, Jane Hutt, 0pursued, and that Welsh taxes sit within a wider UK context. That’s something I would completely agree with. I think it’s good that we’re starting out with that maxim.In terms of it sitting within the wider UK and international context, what mechanisms are in place to see that there is a close dialogue with the UK Government when it comes to making tax policy decisions? Clearly, at the start of this process and with the establishment of the WRA, there have had to be UK-wide discussions. Beyond that, it will be up to us to set our own devolved taxes, but I think it is helpful that we do see those in the wider UK context. And, clearly, there aren’t just effects on us of UK policy, but there will be a certain degree of effect on the policy decisions that we take here in terms of tax across the rest of the UK as well, particularly when you consider the porous border and the number of people who live near the Welsh border in Wales—50 per cent of the population within 30 miles.I’m pleased that you’re honouring your commitment to bring forward details of rates and bands. I believe that that was the commitment you gave to the Finance Committee, with many of us, including me, and I remember Mark Reckless making the point that we would like to have seen the rates and bands on the face of the Bill upfront. You made your arguments for not doing that, and I remember you saying that, as a compromise, you would bring forward further details of the rates at an appropriate time. So, I’m pleased to see that coming forward and we will look at those with interest.The policy framework refers to new taxes several times. And, of course, the new fiscal regime does allow for the Welsh Government to introduce new taxes. I think it was when we had the Senedd at Newport and you came to an evidence session there, I seem to remember you saying that you thought it would be interesting to develop or look at developing some new taxes, or one new tax, I think you said, as a trial to see how that process would work, to test that process. Have you had any further thoughts on that, because, clearly, if, on the one hand—I’m being cynical for a moment—you are thinking of keeping the existing tax take with the existing taxes like stamp duty and landfill, et cetera, and keeping those relatively similar to where they are at the moment, if you bring in a new tax, then that is a way of surreptitiously increasing a tax take. So, I’d be interested to know if you had any further thoughts on developing new taxes.Can I ask you about the reform of council tax, which you do mention briefly in the framework document? Is this a precursor to a move or to a debate about potentially replacing that with a land value tax? There has been a lot of discussion between Assembly Members and also within Wales, outside within academia, about the relative merits of a land value tax. I know it operates in other parts of the world. Clearly a land value tax—I’m not going to enter the discussion about it now—has benefits for some, but, in rural areas, where there is more land ownership, then that could cause problems. So, I think if we are going down the line of looking at a land value tax, the sooner we initiate that discussion so that we can all have an input into that, the better.On the issue of income tax in general, obviously it’s different to the other two taxes—and I’ll finish with this, Deputy Presiding Officer—in that I believe that the responsibility for raising this remains with HMRC; it’s not something that’s going to be devolved here. So, how are you working to strengthen relations with HMRC in this respect to make sure that this process does run as smoothly as possible? But, thank you for bringing forward this framework today. I look forward to its development with interest.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I thank Nick Ramsay for his broad welcome of the publication of the framework and its work programme. I did have a hand in the writing of the foreword to it. I think Mario Cuomo said that politicians campaign in poetry but govern in prose, and, generally, I think the job of a working politician is closer to limericks than sonnets. But I’m glad that he enjoyed reading it.Can I say that I think he very accurately summarised some of the key debates that lie behind the framework and the advice that we have had from stakeholders about continuity, in the earliest days of tax devolution, with a possibility of greater differentiation in the future and particular advice to us about the porous nature of the border and being attentive to the way in which decisions about devolved taxes made in Wales would have an impact upon cross-border activity.Nick Ramsay asked me a series of specific questions, Dirprwy Lywydd, which I will try and answer now. In relation to how we will continue to have a close dialogue with other component parts of the United Kingdom, I look forward to the continuation of the finance quadrilateral meetings involving the finance Ministers of the north of Ireland, of Scotland and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. In a spirit of cross-party co-operation, let me put on record my appreciation of the work of David Gauke when he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury. He’s now been promoted, I would guess, to a more substantive Cabinet portfolio, but I always found him someone with whom it was possible to do business and to have proper conversations, even when we didn’t agree, and I look forward now to re-establishing that relationship with his successor.Can I confirm this afternoon, Dirprwy Lywydd, that I do intend to bring forward a statement in relation to rates and bands by 1 October as I agreed with the Finance Committee? As to new taxes, I think, Dirprwy Lywydd, it would be accurate to say that the new settlement allows the Welsh Government the potential to propose new taxes rather than to introduce new Welsh taxes. There are a series of hurdles set out in the command paper that led to the Wales Act 2014 that we would have to meet, were a new tax successfully to be proposed for Wales. I am very keen, as I said in Newport, to test the machinery that has now been established. And, as I said in my statement, a debate has been agreed in Government time before the summer recess, and I hope that the nature of that debate will be genuinely open. It’s not a debate on a series of propositions the Government intends to bring forward for people to endorse or not. It’s a debate in which I hope we will collectively pool all the ideas that we might be able to generate, all the considerations that we think we need to work through, and that it will be a debate in which, across the Chamber, we share the best ideas we have in order to allow us to test that machinery in the most successful way.Nick Ramsay asked about reform of council tax and whether it is directly linked to the longer term possibilities of replacing council tax. The answer, I think, to that is probably that they’re not directly linked in that way. I do hope to make some proposals for the reform of council tax as it operates in the here and now to make it fairer and make it more efficiently administered. At the same time, the work programme, as Members will have seen, commits us to work to look at, in an applied way, how alternatives to the council tax, including LVT, might impact, were they to be introduced, in Welsh circumstances. I think that’s a very important piece of work, and it will allow the Assembly in the future to make an informed decision as to whether or not there is a better way of organising local taxation arrangements, because we will have moved on in this Assembly term from a rehearsal of the theoretical merits of different models of local taxation to an applied piece of work that looks at what we would actually have to do and what the real-world impact of a shift might be.Finally, to confirm what Nick Ramsay said, administration of income tax, post the partial devolution of income tax, will remain with HMRC, not with the Welsh Revenue Authority, but a joint project board has been established and has met, between the HMRC, between the Welsh Government, involving the WRA as well. HMRC will draw on its experience of partial devolution of income tax in Scotland to make sure that it is in the best position it can be to take on these new-formed responsibilities for Wales.

Simon Thomas AC: As Chair of the Finance Committee, I’d just like to welcome the report from the Cabinet Secretary and just tell you about a few of the things that the Finance Committee are doing that go hand in hand, hopefully, with the Government’s intentions, and to give that scrutiny perspective to the work of Government.May I say at the outset that I want to say just how readable this framework is, and not just the foreword—the rest of it, too, is free from some of the complex language that we hear from Government from time to time? And that’s an important point, because many people in Wales still aren’t fully aware of the devolution of taxes that is happening, and certainly aren’t aware of the devolution of income tax. A referendum, of course, would have created that awareness. I’m pleased that there isn’t going to be such a referendum, but I also think that there’s a job of work for us all to inform people about this issue, and I would like to hear, perhaps, a little more from the Government as to what they are doing to promote this framework and to disseminate the message on the devolution of taxation. We should also welcome the fact that we have, in this framework, a purpose and a clear objective for taxation in Wales; principles that have been clearly set out. One could disagree with them—I don’t do so, personally, but one could disagree with them—and at least you do know what the Government’s purposes are in taxation, and that’s very different to some other Governments, including the other Governments of these isles.Now, the Finance Committee has already shown a commitment to scrutinise taxation policies and the further devolution that’s going to happen, and I think we’ve already seen the outcome of that work, with the two Bills that the Cabinet Secretary mentioned, and the work that the Finance Committee has done in scrutinising both of those Bills, for example leading to the commitment to provide a community scheme on the landfill Bill, has shown that there is work to be done jointly here between Government and the Assembly. And we, as a committee, also have a big interest in the establishment of the Welsh Revenue Authority, and as well as holding the pre-appointment hearing with the candidate for chair of the authority, we will continue the work of scrutinising the preparation for the establishment of the authority, particularly their digital activities, before they start or take on board their full functions next April.I think it’s also important to remind Assembly Members that a change is to be proposed next week to our Standing Orders to ensure that we do have new Standing Orders and a protocol agreed with the Finance Committee and the Government in order to ensure that we in the Assembly have the necessary tools to scrutinise Government as they introduce these new taxes, and that very interesting suggestion that we heard today from the Cabinet Secretary of a debate on new taxes, and I think everyone will be interested in looking at that. Just in that context, if I may ask the Cabinet Secretary: as the Finance Committee, as he already knows, is already enquiring into the possibility of building upon our new Standing Orders to move towards a parliamentary framework that would run hand in hand with the Government’s fiscal framework, does he have any work in the pipeline to look at processes such as a finance Bill or other processes? Because, at present, we do want to see how the Parliament can be strengthened in that regard.I welcome the fact that the framework talks of other taxes. It’s important to note that council tax and non-domestic rates are just as important to many people as the taxes that we’ve already seen devolved, and in that context, too, there is a very important paragraph in the framework—paragraph 49, I believe—which discusses how the Government will publish data and how it will gather data in moving forward. The Finance Committee is visiting Scotland this week, and on Thursday, we hope to have discussions with the Scottish Fiscal Commission. Now, I know that the Government isn’t going to establish such a commission, but the Cabinet Secretary mentioned the work that will be done by Bangor University, and I would also like to know how the Government is going to publish this information, and how it will ensure that we, as Assembly Members, but also members of the public, have the most recent data and the most up-to-date information in order to ensure that the decisions taken in the name of the Welsh Government, and in the name of the people of Wales therefore, are the right ones and are evidence based.This statement is to be welcomed, and the framework is to be welcomed, and I look forward—and I’m sure that all members of the Finance Committee look forward—to scrutinising this information in more detail, but also to work with Government in order to ensure that we have the best possible systems in place, in a parliamentary sense, over these new taxation powers.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Simon Thomas, as Chair of the Finance Committee, for your words this afternoon. Of course, I welcome working with the committee and we are collaborating on more than one piece of work. There are different methods of working as well, and I acknowledge that sometimes the committee will scrutinise the work of the Government, but I think that we can demonstrate that over the past year it has been possible to collaborate on some of the important issues for the people of Wales, and also to improve some of the things that have come before the committee. I look forward to working with the committee in that manner in the future.I agree with Simon Thomas that we have a great deal of work to do in trying to explain to the public what exactly we’re doing in the taxation field. We will publish a pamphlet for the public that endeavours to put on one page the most important features of the framework and we will then distribute that leaflet throughout the whole of Wales to assist people, to help them understand what we’re trying to do in Wales. We’ve pursued the principles that the OECD have published, and we’ve pursued those principles in the framework itself. But the OECD is also offering us some support in the attempt to get people to understand the new powers coming to Wales and what the Government is trying to do with them.I acknowledge the fact that the committee has the right to scrutinise the work of the Welsh Revenue Authority. And I know that the new chair is looking forward to the work that she is going to be doing with the committee in future.I’m pleased that it has been possible to agree the new process that will be coming before the committee next week to try and get the processes that we use in the process of funding and budget creation for our public services in Wales, with the new powers that we have. Government officials are proceeding to work on that new process and to see how other people do the same thing. I’m looking forward to learning from the work of the committee in this field, and I’m sure that there will be many things to learn in Scotland when the committee goes up there this week.Deputy Presiding Officer, I’m happy to confirm that the work that Bangor University will be doing will be published. It’s independent work and they will be publish it so that Assembly Members can see what they’re saying about the work that we are undertaking as a Government. I hope that, before the summer, or in the autumn, I will be able to publish long-term plans as regards how we’re going to get people here in Wales to do the work that the commission is doing in Scotland.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I very much welcome the statement, as everybody else has done? Certainly, the framework, I think, is very helpful. Can I just say, I agree entirely that taxes are the admission price that each one of us has to pay to live in a civilised society? It’s taxation that provides the key public services that we all rely on. We cannot live in a country with Scandinavian-type services based on American tax rates, especially as corporation tax for multinationals is, basically, optional, as they can use internal transfer rates to move money and profit around the world, so that they can make their profits in the British Virgin Islands on money raised in Britain, because they’re paying internal transfer costs and they’re paying the costs of intellectual property rights. That is a serious problem, and although corporation tax is not likely to be devolved in the near future, I’d prefer to see a tax on turnover, rather than on profits, because the ability to move profits abroad or to low-tax or zero-tax places is having a very serious effect on the amount of money coming in, and we know that the amount of money coming in in terms of business taxes has reduced as a proportion of the taxation raised within this country.Whilst taxation rates in some areas are being devolved, of course you can’t deal with them in isolation, can you, because whatever tax rate you set on anything, somebody is going to say—people sitting next to me or people sitting opposite—they’re paying less in, or more in; please name the neighbouring or nearby country or place? So, I think that that itself does put constraints. And we know what happened in Scotland, don’t we? Scotland has the power to vary tax rates. They varied it in exactly the same way as the Westminster Chancellor varied it. The Westminster Chancellor moved it up, they moved it up; the Westminster Chancellor moved it down, they moved it down—in complete synchronisation. So, you have powers, but sometimes powers are things that exist in theory but don’t necessarily exist as a practical means of doing things.I actually have three questions. The first one is: as you know, Cabinet Secretary, a large number of taxes could not be devolved to Wales due to membership of the European Union and European rules. One of the things that seemed to be included was one that was meant to be devolved, which hasn’t, which was aggregate levy. What additional taxes does the Cabinet Secretary think should be considered for devolution, apart from the aggregate levy—not necessarily to be devolved but actually to be considered as part of the devolution settlement?The second question I’ve got is: at what stage do we have a Welsh budget covering revenue raised via tax rates as well as expenditure agreed by the Assembly as one overall budget? Must we reach some stage where that has to happen, like it does at other Parliaments where they raise all their money, or nearly all their money? At what stage do we actually do the two at the same time?And can I talk about local council tax? I think I might get agreement with this. Can we have increased upper bands put into the council tax bands? I think that the upper band covers far too large an area. I’d like to see some narrowing of the bands as well. I think that the proportion of the value of our property, paid by somebody who has a £30,000 house, as opposed to somebody who pays for a £2 million house, is substantially less for the person with the £2 million house. I think that’s fundamentally wrong, and the council tax system does have people in lower-cost properties paying a higher proportion of the value of that property in council tax than the very affluent. So, will you look at bringing in more bands and try and pick up—maybe not very many properties? I mean, the number of £1 million houses in Wales may well be well under 1,000, but there’s no reason why those people should not be paying their fair share.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Mike Hedges’s opening remarks about perceived fairness of the tax system is very important to us in this framework. We put a lot of emphasis on conducting taxation in Wales in a way that Welsh citizens will regard as fair. Part of the reason that things happened in the way they did last week, I think, was a sense, on behalf of lots of people in Wales and beyond, that the way that the economy has been conducted in recent years has not been one in which the burden has been placed on the shoulders of those most able to bear it. Mike makes a very important point about powers and their usefulness and their usability, and we will see, over the next couple of years, the extent to which the powers that we currently have can be put to work in a way that differentiates them from use elsewhere as we try and match them with Welsh needs and circumstances.In relation to the three specific questions, I think the Silk commission said that VAT was not a tax—that it had considered the devolution because of European Union harmonisation rules. I have agreed with Adam Price recently, when he’s asked questions on this, that this is at least something that we now ought to be prepared to look at, to see whether there is anything there that can be more additionally useful without EU membership rules.The question of how we scrutinise the budget and put it together in a way that revenue raised and spending decisions made are aligned with one another: well, I hope that you will see that the proposals that will come forward next week go some way to doing that already, and the further work that the Finance Committee will do on further alignment will be a help in that. I think we’d have to recognise that there is a genuine difficulty in the UK Government’s decision that an autumn budget means the end of November. Because for both ourselves and for Scotland and Northern Ireland that inevitably means that we will have laid our draft budget, and, in the middle of the process of its being scrutinised, potentially significant changes could be made at the UK level that will mean that some of the assumptions we made at the start on revenue and on spend will be changed before the final budget can be laid. At the moment, that is a difficulty without a readily to hand solution.As far as the council tax is concerned, as I said in my answer to Nick Ramsay, we do intend to bring forward proposals for making council tax fairer, and the issue of bands and the proportion the council tax represents as a percentage of property values will be part of that consideration.

Neil Hamilton AC: It’s the misfortunate of somebody who comes this low in the proceedings that most of the intelligent questions have been asked already, but I’ll try and till a new furrow. I broadly welcome the statement from the Cabinet Secretary, although I must say some of the language doesn’t seem to bear the normal professorial detachment with which the Cabinet Secretary has added so much lustre to the various offices that he has held. I don’t know whether, in particular, the bottom line on page 1, which refers to the ‘dog-eat-dog economy of the neo-liberal imagination’was specifically directed at me, but I’d like to assure him that there is nothing ‘neo’ about me—[Interruption.]—nothing ‘neo’ about me at all. As my exact contemporary, Jeremy Corbyn—we were elected to Parliament on the same day, the same age—[Interruption.] I, at least, have advanced in my station to the Welsh Assembly, to respond to the interruption by David Rees. Just as he is a paleosocialist, I suppose I’m a paleoliberal conservative, in financial and economic terms at least.But I’d like to raise what I think is going to be a growingly important issue in Wales. I’ve just read an HMRC publication called ‘A disaggregation of HMRC tax receipts between England, Wales, Scotland & Northern Ireland’. Table 4 of that provides statistics for what I think is a very disturbing trend—that, since the year 2003-04, in almost every year, the proportion of income tax receipts as a proportion of the total UK tax receipts has declined, year in and year out, which seems to imply that Wales is falling backwards in terms of income, nationally, relative to other parts of the United Kingdom. Therefore, although I am strongly in favour, personally, of the devolution of income tax and other taxes as well, given that we also have a reduction in the block grant from Whitehall as a consequence, there is a danger, unless we reverse this trend, that we are going to find that we are squeezed more and more, year in, year out, and, therefore, to develop a theme that Adam Price very often raises in this Chamber, what can we do to raise GVA relative to other parts of the UK in Wales?It seems to me that giving us the opportunity to compete in terms of taxation with other parts of the national jurisdiction is one means by which we can do that—by attracting more business into Wales to produce more wealth that can then be taxed. As has been pointed out in the statement, paying taxes is of course a badge of admission to a civilised society, although I’d be far from implying a direct relationship, and certainly I don’t take the opposite view that a high-tax jurisdiction is a more civilised society by definition. There are plenty of examples that we could cite to disprove that hypothesis. But taxes do affect behaviour. That is indisputable, and indeed is referred to in the framework document published by the Welsh Government itself.I don’t think that it actually adds to a sober analysis of the impact of taxation upon income and the generation of wealth to use the kind of ‘Tom and Jerry’ language of ‘dog-eat-dog’ that the Cabinet Secretary has used in this statement. In fact, although Mike Hedges referred in the course of his contribution to the United States, the United States is a relatively high-tax jurisdiction, especially if you take into account the combination of federal, state and local taxes. Ernst and Young have done a very interesting analysis of the American tax system in relation to the tax systems elsewhere, and the macro-economic effects of these high tax rates. They say, for example, that the high US corporation tax rate is beginning to have significant adverse economic consequences for the US economy and American workers, and suggest that the reform of the US corporation tax that includes a significant reduction of the rate would likely provide important economic benefits to the United States. Well, I would say that that's true in spades of Wales.Of course, corporation tax is not a devolved tax, and I think it would be a very good thing if, as the Holtham commission recommended, it were devolved to Wales, because it would give us the opportunity to attract more private investment into Wales, on the back of which we could then have, not just a higher GVA for the whole country, but a bigger tax base for the Welsh Government, which we could spend on all the things that we would like to spend money on but which we can't now afford.I know that the Cabinet Secretary has disparaged what he thinks are my views in relation to what he described in our last exchange as the Laffer curve, but, when we consider the experience of the Irish Republic, and in particular in relation to corporation tax, they have a corporation tax rate of 12.5 per cent, but they have a special 6.25 per cent corporation tax rate in relation to what they call the knowledge development box, that is, for genuine innovators employing highly skilled people. It seems to me that Wales has a far too high proportion of income created by the public sector. We need to increase the proportion that is generated by private enterprise, and if we deny ourselves the opportunity to use the tax system in order to encourage that then I think we're stabbing ourselves in the back.If we take the party political badinage out of this, there is a mass of empirical evidence to show that, whilst there isn't a direct relationship, obviously, between particular tax rates and economic growth or wealth in a society, there is, as the Cabinet Secretary will readily admit, a connection of some kind between the two, and lower taxes generally tend to produce higher GVA. After all, take the logical extreme of this, Singapore: it’s one of the wealthiest countries in the world with almost no natural resources and the lowest tax rates. So, that says nothing, of course, about the distribution of income in Singapore, but, nevertheless, the economy of the country and the wealth that it now enjoys, compared with the situation 20 to 30 years ago, speaks for itself. So, I would just like to make that plea to the Cabinet Secondary to be perhaps a little more flexible in his thinking about this issue.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Neil Hamilton for the initial broad welcome he gave to the framework. I'll just try and respond to, I think, three different points that he made. The disaggregation work of HMRC in the table to which he referred—I think I’d draw a couple of different conclusions from it than he does. The reason that it shows declining income tax receipts from Wales is essentially because of rising thresholds at the bottom end of income tax distribution over that period. And because Wales has a higher proportion of its population that pays tax on the bottom band of income tax, if those thresholds rise faster than inflation, as they generally have over that period, there is an inevitability that income tax receipts in Wales decline relative to other parts of the United Kingdom with a different income tax distribution. Now, this was a very important consideration in the agreement of the fiscal framework. It's why we have an agreement that the Welsh economy for income tax purposes is compared separately at each of the three bands, and why the block grant adjustment will be taken into account separately against those three very different ways in which income tax is raised.So, I think it's an important point that he raises, and he’s right to point to HMRC's work, but I don't think its conclusions are quite as bleak for Wales as he suggested, and I think that our future ability to raise revenue in Wales and the fiscal framework will help to protect us against decisions that are made elsewhere over which we have no direct control but which have an impact on the extent to which income tax receipts are collected here in Wales.On the business of corporation tax, of course he is quite right to say that this is a non-devolved matter. Silk suggested that it should only be devolved to Wales if it were at the same time to be devolved to both Scotland as well as Northern Ireland, and I’m sure the Member would find it interesting to explore the Northern Irish experience to date, where the practical use of the devolution of corporation tax has proved much more difficult than originally anticipated. In particular, the Treasury’s refusal to take into account second-order effects of corporation tax devolution has meant that, from a Northern Ireland perspective, they will pay all the costs of corporation tax devolution with very few of the benefits. That’s why its introduction, I think, has been delayed there.On his final point, let me say this to him: I think he too often is in danger of falling into the ‘private good, public bad’ mantra of his youth, of his Thatcherite, palaeoliberal, was it, past. What I would say to him is this: I think we are very clear in our framework that we recognise that the way we discharge our fiscal responsibilities will have a direct impact on the future of the Welsh economy, and that we want to exercise these responsibilities in a way that helps to grow the Welsh economy and to create new sources of wealth and income for the people of Wales in the future. There’s no ambiguity in the Welsh Government’s position in that, and we will always have the interests of our economy at the forefront of our mind when we come to make the decisions that are now being devolved to us here in Wales.

Thank you. It will please me if the next speaker, and the last speaker in this statement, could just ask a very brief introduction and a question, and then we can finish probably just five minutes over time. Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: This is my ‘Mastermind’ specialist question, Dirprwy Lywydd, but I’ll be as brief as I can. I welcome the framework and the general principles. I recognised from my GCSE—or O-level economics, actually, let’s be honest—Adam Smith’s canons of equity and certainty there. So, two out of the four canons—not bad at all.I will just focus very briefly if I may on the tax policy work plan. I should pay credit to Ben Lake, who joined us in the finance liaison committee and made a huge contribution here, and will be making a huge contribution somewhere else as well over the years to come. The work plan refers to a review of small business rates relief, which will be happening soon. If the Cabinet Secretary could say a little bit about that—obviously you set out the policy of the Labour party at the Assembly election, but, seeing as it’s a review, presumably they will take input from other parties beyond that stated outline position. He mentioned air passenger duty. Can he confirm—? There was an implicit recognition that this is Labour party policy at a UK level to devolve this to Wales, but it wasn’t quite explicit, so if he could set that on the record.I followed the debate with interest about the Laffer curve, which we often have here, but would the Cabinet Secretary accept that actually one method of using corporation tax, obviously, to close the prosperity gap is to devolve? There are attendant issues with that, which he referred to, in terms of block grant reduction in the case of Northern Ireland. There is a different method, of course, which was actually referred to in the Holtham commission report, which is actually to have the central Government set variable rates of taxes like corporation tax, but it could also apply to APD—I understand that that’s what the DUP are trying for in their negotiations—as Nicholas Calder did with selective employment tax in regional policy in the 1970s. So, this isn’t a race to the bottom now. This is the centre saying, ‘We will reflect the different levels of economic prosperity by having discounted rates of certain taxes in those areas like Wales that could benefit from something of a boost, without that then leading to a hit in terms of the block grant.I have much more to say, Dirprwy Lywydd, but, out of deference to you, I will sit down.

Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I thank Adam Price too for what he said about the work programme?Mae'r rhaglen waith yn gyhoeddiad pwysig iawn ochr yn ochr â'r fframwaith. Rwy’n gobeithio y bydd Aelodau o bleidiau eraill yma’n gweld, lle mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwneud rhai ymrwymiadau penodol i gynnwys eitemau yn y rhaglen waith, y gallwch eu gweld yno. Mae hynny'n cynnwys y posibilrwydd o ryddhad ardrethi ynni y soniodd Adam Price amdano. Mae pŵer i wneud rheoliadau yn y Ddeddf treth trafodiadau tir sy'n caniatáu i Lywodraeth Cymru ddefnyddio’r pŵer hwnnw i wneud rheoliadau i gyflwyno gostyngiadau newydd.Rwyf wedi ceisio nodi tri maen prawf bob tro yr ydym wedi siarad am ostyngiadau newydd cyn belled ag y mae LTTA dan sylw. Byddai angen pwrpas polisi y cytunwyd arno—ac rwy’n meddwl bod rhyddhad egni’n bodloni hynny, oherwydd rydym yn chwilio am fanteision amgylcheddol yno—mae'n rhaid iddynt fod yn fforddiadwy, ac yn drydydd rhaid iddynt fodloni eu cynulleidfa arfaethedig. Dyna mae'n debyg y peth allweddol—y prawf allweddol y mae'n rhaid ei basio wrth inni edrych ar y posibilrwydd o ryddhad ardrethi ynni. Oherwydd cafodd rhyddhad o'r fath ei gyflwyno rhwng 2007 a 2012, a gwnaethom gefnu arno, i bob diben, oherwydd bod y dystiolaeth empirig yn dangos nad oedd y rhyddhad, yn syml, wedi cyrraedd y bobl y bwriadwyd ef ar eu cyfer, ac nad oedd wedi cael yr effaith polisi yr oeddem wedi gobeithio amdano. Ond mae yno yn y rhaglen waith er mwyn caniatáu i’r pethau hyn gael eu profi ymhellach, ac rwy'n awyddus iawn ein bod yn gwneud hynny.Rwy'n meddwl y bydd Aelodau gyferbyn hefyd yn gweld yn y rhaglen waith ymrwymiad penodol gan Awdurdod Cyllid Cymru i gyhoeddi data am y gyfradd uwch ar gyfer ail gartrefi ac a yw hynny’n cael effaith ranbarthol yng Nghymru, i ganiatáu i awdurdodau lleol a allai ddymuno gwneud achos i Lywodraeth Cymru am drefniadau gwahaniaethol yn y dyfodol i fod â’r data y byddai eu hangen arnynt er mwyn gallu gwneud yr achos hwnnw’n effeithiol.A gaf i ategu’r hyn a ddywedodd Adam Price ynglŷn â'r Aelod Seneddol newydd ar gyfer Ceredigion? Roeddwn yn teimlo bob amser ei fod wedi chwarae rhan adeiladol a defnyddiol iawn yn y trafodaethau sydd wedi digwydd rhwng ein dwy blaid, ac rwy’n amlwg yn ei longyfarch yn fawr iawn ar ei lwyddiant yno yr wythnos diwethaf.Cyn belled ag y mae’r toll teithwyr awyr dan sylw, mae hwn wir yn faes lle nad yw hanes Llywodraeth y DU yn dal dŵr. Mae'n dangos eu bod wedi llunio polisi treth yn hollol ar hap ledled y Deyrnas Unedig. Argymhellodd eu Comisiwn Silk eu hunain o leiaf ddatganoli toll teithwyr awyr ar gyfer teithiau pell. Mae’r ffaith bod Llywodraeth y DU wedi gwrthod cyhoeddi'r dystiolaeth y maent yn dweud eu bod wedi ei defnyddio er mwyn gwrthod datganoli'r dreth hon i Gymru yn rhywbeth na ellir ei gynnal. Byddwn yn parhau i weithio, fel y mae’r rhaglen waith yn ei ddweud, i ddangos ein cred y byddai datganoli’r darn hwn o drethiant yn briodol er budd nid yn unig i Gymru ond i economïau cyfagos inni hefyd.Mae'r mater o ddatganoli treth gorfforaeth wedi cael ei godi nifer o weithiau yma y prynhawn yma. Rwy'n ymwybodol o'r amrywiad Holtham ar ddatganoli treth gorfforaeth, a darllenais â diddordeb erthygl ddiweddar gan Eurfyl ap Gwilym sy'n dychwelyd at y syniad. Fy marn i yw ei fod yn dal i fod yn rhywbeth y dylem barhau i’w drafod. Rwyf wedi dweud yma yn y gorffennol, Dirprwy Lywydd, fy mod yn pryderu am ras i'r gwaelod o ran datganoli treth gorfforaeth, ond mae ffyrdd, efallai, y gellid lliniaru hynny pe câi ei wneud mewn ffyrdd penodol. Sylwais fod Eurfyl ap Gwilym yn dweud yn ei bapur y byddai’n wleidyddol dderbyniol i Lywodraeth y DU osod cyfraddau’n newidiol fel hyn mewn gwahanol rannau o'r Deyrnas Unedig. Ac ni allwn ond credu y byddai'n un o'r syniadau hynny a fyddai'n wleidyddol dderbyniol i'r rheini sy'n elwa ohono, ac efallai ychydig yn llai derbyniol i'r rheini nad ydynt. Ond dadl ar gyfer diwrnod arall yw honno. Rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn i'r holl Aelodau sydd wedi cymryd rhan y prynhawn yma yn yr hyn sydd wedi bod, rwy’n meddwl, yn drafodaeth ddefnyddiol iawn am y cyfrifoldebau newydd pwysig iawn hyn.

4. 4. Statement: The Independent Review of Support for Publishing and Literature in Wales

The next item on the agenda is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure on the independent review of support for publishing and literature in Wales, and I call on Ken Skates to introduce the statement.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. In May 2015, I announced a review of support for publishing and literature in Wales, chaired by Professor Medwin Hughes. This is the first time that an independent review has considered the Welsh Government’s overall support for publishing and literature. A review of support for books from Wales was commissioned in 2014, but no independent panel has previously been commissioned to consider this area in its entirety. I am grateful to the members of the review panel for their professionalism and hard work. The panel’s report will be available on the Welsh Government’s website this afternoon.I asked the panel to assess the main aims of the Welsh Government in supporting the publishing industry and literature in Wales, in both languages. What are we seeking to achieve, culturally, socially and economically? Are these aims still fit for purpose in the twenty-first century? I asked them to look at the scale and remit of the support currently given, including the relationship between the bodies responsible for delivering this support. They were also asked to consider the impact of digital developments within the publishing industry, and to assess the administrative arrangements for our support of a Welsh language daily online news service, as well as the ‘papurau bro’. Finally, the panel were to consider support for publishing and literature in disadvantaged areas across Wales.In carrying out this analysis, the panel were, of course, mindful of the Welsh Government’s broader strategic priorities as set out in ‘Taking Wales Forward’ and our legal duties to the people of Wales, including the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. There have been huge changes in the way in which both written and audio-visual material is published and consumed. This review, therefore, provided the opportunity to reconsider the nature of the current infrastructure support in the context of the changing dynamics within publishing. Such changes range from the creative ways in which writers practice and engage in their craft, the digital developments for publishing and the ever-expanding opportunities for readers to engage with literature, be that through live events or other formats.There are likely to be further huge changes over the next five to 10 years. Therefore, in producing its recommendations, the panel focused on the need for support structures that will not only be appropriate for 2017, but will be adaptable enough to respond to further evolution in the sector, remaining relevant and being able to identify new opportunities for publishing and literature across Wales.It has taken some time for this report to be finalised. Rightly taking an evidence-based approach, the panel invited key stakeholders to present on the current infrastructure and support in Wales. These discussions were often passionate, and clearly demonstrated the level of professional interest in the subject. The public were also invited to contribute via a bilingual online questionnaire. The unexpectedly large but welcome response clearly showed the importance that people attach to our rich literary tradition and the contemporary vibrancy of the published word in Wales. Given the significant amount of evidence submitted, it became apparent that additional time was required to allow the panel to consider it in detail.The final report explains the literary and publishing ecosystem in Wales, from writer to reader, placing it in the context of the Welsh Government’s priorities for culture and the creative industries, and the contribution made by literature and publishing. It considers the issues faced in both Welsh and English language publishing and describes the publishing process itself, explaining the support currently available. It sets out the roles of the Welsh Books Council, the Arts Council of Wales, Literature Wales and various functions of Welsh Government, including education, the major events unit, the Welsh language division and creative industries.The report summarises the evidence received from the key stakeholder organisations, from the industry itself, and from the public. It explains the panel’s response to that evidence, leading to its conclusions and recommendations. There is not time for me to discuss this in any detail, but I can say that the panel recognised significant good practice and effective support that should be continued and built upon in the future.It identified areas where support needs to evolve to meet the challenging needs in a digital age. It also found clear evidence of real problems in some areas, related to strategic planning, priority setting, governance, risk management, spending, and in ensuring that activities are effective in delivering the outcomes we need. Broadly, I accept the panel’s conclusions and agree that action is needed.The panel makes a strong case for the Welsh Government to continue to provide appropriate financial support, based upon valuing our renowned bilingual literary tradition, enabling it to thrive in the twenty-first century, ensuring its global reach, and supporting access and participation right across Wales. It also makes the case for a strong, innovative publishing industry that provides high-quality jobs, competes internationally, and allows professional writers of all backgrounds to develop career pathways in Wales. This support should be for publishing and literature in both Welsh and English, in print and in digital. However, digital provision and strategy by the supporting organisations need to be significantly improved. The panel sets out a series of recommendations. Some of these are for the Welsh Government, others are for the industry and the key delivery organisations. We will provide a formal response in due course, but I will explain some of the main strategic and structural recommendations. Given the significant weight and compelling nature of the evidence received, I am minded to accept these and will work with the relevant organisations to implement them.The Welsh Government should seek agreement from the Welsh Books Council that it will take on some of Literature Wales’s current functions, including: book of the year, aiming to increase its commercial impact; bursaries; literary events and writers on tour; and provision for children and young people. This would require a transfer of appropriate Welsh Government funding from the Arts Council of Wales to the Welsh Books Council, for these purposes.The following would then need to be considered by the Welsh Books Council: a change of title to reflect additional responsibilities; appropriate presence at a regional level across Wales; a clear and focused digital strategy; a clear strategy to promote inclusion across Wales, building on its existing child poverty strategy; and a talent development strategy. These changes would need to be reflected in a revised grant award letter to the books council and a revised remit letter to the arts council. Following these changes, responsibility for Tŷ Newydd writing centre and the delivery of other cultural events and festivals would remain with the arts council and Literature Wales.I realise that some people may be surprised at the extent of the changes. I should stress that they are in response to specific needs in a specific area of activity. They are not a reflection on the wider work of the arts council and my appreciation of the good work that Literature Wales has delivered in some areas; for example, the excellent delivery of major events and activities linked to our themed years—this will remain unchanged. However, I am persuaded that these steps are needed to create a support structure for publishing and literature that is more effective and fit for purpose.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Ken Skates AC: As Professor Hughes himself said, at the core of this review is the opportunity to celebrate Wales and the creative power of literature to describe, interpret and celebrate our identity. That creative power is of great value, both on a national and international stage. The proposed changes will allow the excellent organisations that underpin our current infrastructure to excel in the areas where they can achieve the most impact in this fast-changing environment, thus enhancing the creative talents of our writers and supporting a dynamic publishing infrastructure for our country.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, for the statement today. I think this review was long overdue. I’m quite pleased to see it was broader than I actually anticipated originally. So, I do thank you for that. My first question was going to be ‘When can we expect to see the report?’ but I can see that it did arrive within an hour of Plenary. Being 200 pages long, I hope you will give us the same courtesy as you extended to the group, in order for us to read it thoroughly and scrutinise you more thoroughly on it, in due course, to use their words. I must admit I was watching the website for a while and it’s still not there, if you want to pass that on to officials. I am very pleased to hear that there was a good response to the consultation. I would have liked to hear a little bit more about what that said on good practice, but I appreciate that this is a statement today and you’ll probably hear from me again on that one.Assembly Members, I don’t think, were approached during this consultation and our attention wasn’t particularly drawn to it. I hope this isn’t just me, but I must admit I didn’t know an awful lot about it until I went looking on the internet for this and only came across a rather unhelpful media piece about a potential conflict of interest, which I know that you’ve responded to. But, in particular, I was a little bit worried when you said in your statement that a questionnaire was the main way of getting hold of people to respond to this. I don’t even know where that questionnaire was. Perhaps you can just fill me in on that. But, actually, if it had a very, very strong public response, and maybe from bodies such as libraries, rather than publishers and stakeholders that you’d expect to respond to this, I’d be very interested to know how they were reached, because that’s a question that affects us all as Assembly Members in trying to get information from but also information out to members of the wider public of Wales that we would normally struggle to do. If there’s new information there about innovative ways of reaching the public, then I would really like to hear about that, particularly if it secured responses from a good geographical balance of members of the public and a good response from people from different socioeconomic backgrounds.With regard to support and impact, I think these go hand in hand, and I’d be quite interested to know what you mean by ‘support’. You mentioned it a couple of times in your statement. Certainly, from the committee that I’m a member of, we’d be extremely interested to hear about support for digital promotion of news in I think what we’d have to accept is a non-pluralistic media landscape in Wales. I think that’s something we’d all be very interested in. However, if we’re going to be dashing down a digital route, and I can understand the impetus to do that, I think we need a good sense of what success looks like at the moment with the organisations who are currently involved in the review, and, in books, just to take a simple example, whether there’s been a particularly good success rate in the Welsh Books Council or publishers getting take-up on Kindle and other e-readers, or what’s the situation with audio books, for example, because not all books are reading books after all? Because, actually, the impact that concerns me most is the impact on the end user. Obviously, I have a deep interest in what happens to the organisations involved in that, but if we don’t end up with more people reading or more people consuming whatever the written word is, whichever format it’s in, there’s a question for, obviously, Welsh Government, but for us all generally, about what success is going to look like at the end of this. You mentioned in your statement‘ensuring…global reach and supporting access and participation across Wales.’I would be keen to know what our global reach is at the moment, what it looks like now and what it could look like realistically as well, because, again, if Welsh Government, with our support, is going to invest in any of the ideas brought forward in the review—and I appreciate that I haven’t read them yet—we want to know what you expect as the end result of that investment, at least in some sort of sense.Just a couple of specifics so that I leave questions for others: the new school curriculum. Now, obviously, we’re going to need an immense amount of resource for the new school curriculum. Is there any intention either to bring resources from your budget into the education budget to help fund both written and digital resources, or is it going to go the other way and actually a responsibility will be given to the Welsh Books Council and the other people involved in this to provide those resources with money from a different budget? I can see the education Cabinet Secretary looking very worried at that prospect.And then, finally, you say the evidence was compelling. Obviously, I haven’t had a chance to test that myself yet. I note there’s a suggestion, or a recommendation, that a number of responsibilities move to the Welsh Books Council from Literature Wales. I make no comment on that, but I’d be very curious if you’re able to encapsulate in a few words why the recommendation didn’t go the other way and actually Welsh Books Council responsibilities transferred to Literature Wales, just as an example. Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Suzy Davies for her questions and for her contribution? Granted, this is an extensive publication. Approximately half of the 200 pages provide the evidence that has informed the recommendations, and it’s worth stating at the outset that the response to the consultation was actually one of the most successful that’s ever been conducted. Something in the region of 820 organisations and individuals responded to the online questionnaire. In fact, if we compare to some other consultations that have taken place in recent times—let’s think primarily about transport—the consultation that took place into the new franchise for the Wales and borders network attracted something in the region of 120 responses. So, this attracted approximately six times that number. It was quite unprecedented and is the reason why it took longer than anticipated for the panel to process and then to respond to. It is a heavily evidence-based approach that they have taken, and that is the reason why the recommendations in terms of the transfer of responsibilities have been taken.I would hope that, during the course of this afternoon and this evening, when the Member gets an opportunity to review the recommendations and the evidence, she’ll agree that it is based on the opinion and experience of organisations, stakeholders and the wider public who have a very keen interest in the publishing sector, and that bold change is suggested in some areas, but so, too, there is recognition that each of the organisations that are responsible for supporting publishing and writing in Wales do exemplary work. What I’m keen to ensure is that they’re able to excel in their respective areas, and that where functions need to be transferred, they are transferred in such a way that they improve as well.I would be happy to meet with any Assembly Members concerning this review, especially any Assembly Members that feel that they haven’t been able to make a direct input into the consultation that took place. Likewise, I’m very keen to meet with the three national bodies that the review primarily concerns at the earliest opportunity—the arts council, the books council and Literature Wales—to discuss in a collegiate fashion how recommendations can be taken forward and, indeed, to hear of any concerns that any of those organisations have about the panel’s recommendations.In terms of what success looks like, well, this is largely captured within the panel’s review. In terms of the numbers of books published, largely, figures for the number of books published in any series or for any publication, numbers are not captured or at least not published. However, we do capture the numbers of books borrowed from public libraries and also the number of e-books and e-magazines that are also borrowed or are also viewed. Now, I can say that we’re in a pretty strong position in Wales insofar as the public library network and book borrowing are concerned. It’s being driven in no small part by the Every Child a Library Member initiative, and also by the Summer Reading Challenge, which is highlighted as a major success story for the Welsh Books Council. But, equally, it’s driven by inspiring events that have taken place, and some major events that have been facilitated by Literature Wales, and I think primarily in the past 12 months the celebration of Roald Dahl’s work. As a consequence of that, we’ve seen the number of books read and the number of books borrowed in Wales remain in healthy shape. Internationally, a good deal of activity has traditionally taken place and been taken forward by Wales Arts International, and also through the Wales Literature Exchange. Having reviewed a significant body of the evidence that is provided in the report, it is my view that the literature exchange is a highly valued method of ensuring that international operations bring benefits to Welsh writers, to Welsh publishers and to Welsh culture as a whole, but there is a specific recommendation within the report which is relevant to Welsh Government, and that concerns the overseas business visits support. I think, in terms of ensuring that publishers have access to strong business advice and also access to international markets, there is an opportunity, I think, through trade missions and other support services, to enhance the offer that publishers have to an international audience.In terms of the curriculum, there is a specific recommendation concerning the curriculum, again, for Welsh Government, of course, but that is simply that it is vital that publishing and literature are considered in the development of the new curriculum, and, for that reason, I am keen to be meeting with the Cabinet Secretary for education and skills. I can’t guarantee that my chequebook will be open with a pen hanging over it at the point of our meeting, but we will be having discussions concerning publishing and literature in Wales, and how it can contribute to the education of people, young and old. And I think I’ve already highlighted the reason why the report largely focuses on a transfer of responsibilities from Literature Wales to the Welsh Books Council, but I would like to state again and put on record that the report and, indeed, many of the people who responded to the consultation deeply value the work of Literature Wales and the Welsh Books Council.

Dai Lloyd AC: May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his comprehensive statement on this independent review of support for publishing and literature in Wales? Our challenge as politicians in this place is to scrutinise what this report says, as well as what you’ve said about the report, and there is a significant challenge in that scrutiny because the report is 212 pages long and it only appeared on our computer system about two hours ago. So, with all due respect, I haven’t had an opportunity to read every word of those 212 pages yet, but that isn’t going to stop me from asking questions, I have to say.There are a number of things here to be welcomed, and one of those things is that this is a vitally important subject. As the report says, and you quote in your final paragraph, this report is an opportunity‘to celebrate Wales—the creative power of literature to describe, interpret and celebrate our identity. That creative power is of great value, both on a national and international stage.’So, taking that seriously, we also have to take this particular subject seriously because, naturally, the landscape, in terms of literature and publishing, has changed significantly over the past few years. There are a number of different platforms, digital and so on, as we’ve already heard. Instead of going to the local bookshop or the library, something called ‘Amazon’ has also arisen and people buy their books from there, most often, these days. And there’s this whole business of working, if we want to work with platforms such as Amazon, which provide the majority of the books that reach our homes, these days. We also need to note, to Amazon, that we need more provision via the Welsh language in what they provide. I note in passing, if I remember rightly, that Lolfa, the publisher, has some kind of arrangement with Amazon, but the Welsh language provision is quite scant. There is that challenge with the changing landscape and it’s constantly changing.With the public funding that is allocated, as you note, there are successes, especially with our ‘papurau bro’—these local papers that do engender interest and disseminate information to our local communities. I think of the ‘papur bro’ in Swansea, ‘Wilia’, and there’s one in Lampeter, ‘Clonc’. We might as well point to that as well, because it’s not every day that we do share the titles of our ‘papurau bro’ in the Chamber, but they have been hugely successful over the years. Of course, we are looking for a continuation of the support for those initiatives and a continuation of their success. And as we are talking about publishing and literature in Wales, I think it is a matter to be welcomed that there are more responsibilities being transferred to the Welsh Books Council. But of course, as you say, there will need to be some changes, remembering the changing landscape in terms of digital and so on.In terms of why some changes have to take place, as you’ve noted already, there are structural changes that are going to take place between the Arts Council of Wales, Literature Wales and the Welsh Books Council, as you’ve noted.I would like to know the timetable for that and how you are going to administer those changes, as Cabinet Secretary. But in the paragraph at the end of the second page out of four, you do note that the review has found clear evidence of genuine problems in some areas relating to setting priorities, governance, risk management, expenditure, and so on and so forth. That list goes on. So, if we’re going to have a statement on a review that the rest of us haven’t had an opportunity to read, then I would like to know more and to have more information and more detail about what exactly these problems are in structural planning, setting priorities, governance, risk management and so on and so forth, as you’ve gone into some detail with regard to describing the problem, but you haven’t given too much detail about what exactly the problem is. So, there is a challenge there, of course.Perhaps the Cabinet Secretary will be aware that the culture committee—Suzy Davies has already mentioned this—are undertaking a review on news journalism at present and the way that communication happens in this digital age. It is a cross-cutting review with what’s happening with the culture committee, which is undertaking this current reviews, so perhaps we do need to refer to the work that is already being done in this place.But, ultimately, as there are so many details that we haven’t had an opportunity to scrutinise, I would like to ask, on the basis of this statement today—that’s all well and good, you’ve answered questions—but I would ask for a full debate in Government time as well. Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Dai Lloyd for his questions and his contribution? Given that this is an extensive report and many Members have not had an opportunity today to read it in full yet or to absorb the detail, I’d be more than happy to bring forward a debate in Government time to examine this report in more detail. Scrutiny of the report will also include further discussions with the national bodies and organisations to whom it is most applicable.I’ll run through some of the general points and then the more specific points that the Member raised. In terms of wholesale challenges, the report does make recommendations for the Welsh Books Council to develop proposals to alleviate the current impact of wholesale book sales and also to accommodate future likely trends. I think this is absolutely essential if we are to maintain, particularly on high streets in rural areas, the presence of small independent bookshops.The panel recognised the great success story of ‘papurau bro’ and recommended that it should be retained as a Welsh Government responsibility, given the various examples that the Member has already outlined and the evidence that was provided by members of the public and stakeholders. It’s quite clear that the current arrangements are fit for purpose and should not be changed.I do hope that all three organisations will be able to respond constructively to the report in the coming weeks. I am also hopeful, as I said to Suzy Davies, to meet with all three together, collectively, to discuss how we can take forward the recommendations. The steps that the report sets out are designed primarily to ensure three things. One is to foster excellence where it’s already embedded. Secondly, to allow all of our supporting organisations to focus on what they do best. And then thirdly, to ensure that activities that are currently not being delivered to the best that we could expect are moved to the best place for them to be delivered effectively for publishers, for writers and for readers.There is detail about the challenges that the Member has asked about within the report. They are quite extensive, and along with the challenges that we currently face, there are clear recommendations on how they can be overcome. And, again, they’re detailed in the report. I should also add that one recommendation that is made by the panel is to conduct a further review, in five years’ time, and I think that would be valuable, given the fast-changing nature of the sector and the need to ensure that the sector itself receives appropriate support from Government, but also that writers, publishers and readers are receiving appropriate support from the national organisations. So, I’d be happy to say that in five years’ time I think that it should be subject to a further review.

Lee Waters AC: Cabinet Secretary, you said that the outset that this is a fast-changing environment that has been vulnerable to a degree of disruption in recent years. The report decides that the Welsh Books Council is the best body—best place—to lead up through this uncertain terrain, but it also says that the Welsh Books Council needs to develop different levels of risk appetite, it needs to develop robust digital strategy, and an increased digital engagement, but it also says that the Welsh Books Council needs to review the nature and capacity of the executive and governance arrangements. Now, taken together, this does seem to me a fairly profound retrofitting of the Welsh Books Council. Given that its reputation is not as the most dynamic of organisations, is the culture Secretary confident that the culture is there within the organisation, given the weaknesses the panel identifies, to be able to carry out the tasks we need it to do?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Lee Waters for his question? So, these are not insignificant challenges that are being presented to the Welsh Books Council, but if they are met, they could deliver enormous benefits for the publishing sector and for writers. I think it’s fair to say that many recommendations that are outlined by the panel concerning the Welsh Books Council relate to the need to innovate more to build on commercial acumen within the organisation and make sure that there is the correct appetite for risk, and also to ensure that the Welsh Books Council has a presence right across Wales, and is dynamic in a changing environment.I think in terms of the organisation itself and its ability to respond to some of the recommendations and what could be additional responsibilities, clearly, there are recommendations concerning the executive and the board, which I think would, if adopted, ensure that the organisation is able to adapt to increases in its responsibility levels, and doing so would then lead to an improvement of service delivery.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks to the Minister for the panel’s report—sorry, for your statement today, and the report, as you said, is a long one, so I’m not sure I look forward that much to reading all of it, but I’m sure we can look at the salient points and discuss them later on.It’s encouraging that—[Interruption.] It’s encouraging that the stakeholders did deliver such a strong response. Now, you’ve identified yourself that one of the major changes, perhaps the biggest change, is the move from the printed page to digital publishing. Now, there are some structural changes proposed: are you confident that this will help to deliver that change to digital successfully and will safeguard publishing jobs in Wales? And could you give a little bit more detail on why you think that these changes are going to be positive ones? Although the medium has changed, is changing, the readership to some extent remains the same. You still need people to be wanting to read books and other materials, so we need to be fostering a love of reading among the young. So, I wondered how much of an onus there will in future on developing this, and how does the panel’s report address this? If you could explain those things, perhaps, in abbreviated terms, that would be good. Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: Sure. In terms of the publication itself, it is exhaustive, but it’s also very detailed and provides a very thorough analysis of publishing and literature in Wales. The change that the Member refers to in terms of digital is captured in a number of sections, and there are recommendations, not just for Welsh Government and the Welsh Books Council, but for a whole number of organisations, and for the publishing sector as a whole to embrace. I think, if that change can take place, if the recommendations for all organisations and the sector as a whole can be implemented in terms of digital transformation, then we will see a step change. What is very clear, not just from the recommendations and the panel review, but also from the evidence that’s been submitted as part of the consultation, is that the digital market needs to be embraced fully. Whilst we do have a great tradition in writing and in publishing in Wales, we are yet to catch up with some of those markets and some of those countries that are at the very forefront of e-books and digital exploitation. But, as I say, there are a number of recommendations for all organisations, and I think, in order to gain maximum benefit from digital opportunities, those recommendations will have to be considered as a whole, not just individually.In terms of children and how we ensure more children are reading more of the time, there are a number of very, very successful initiatives that are operated, not just by the Welsh Books Council and by Literature Wales, but also by Welsh Government. I’ve already noted a number of them, including the summer reading challenge and the every child a library member scheme, and, of course, there are the added benefits of getting more young people reading, which include more parents then becoming readers more of the time. I think this has great benefit in terms of adults gaining greater skills for employment.I mentioned in the statement that I made that the Welsh Books Council will need to examine, in terms of inclusion—and this relates to the promotion of books to young people. It will need to reflect on its current strategies and its current policies, and enhance, in terms of inclusion, its presence around Wales in order to ensure that its work, and the work of publishers and the work of writers are promoted and taken to all communities in Wales.I think this is incredibly exciting for the sector. It’s exciting for writers, and if the recommendations, clearly after further scrutiny, can be implemented, then I think we can see an even greater number of people taking up reading and also taking up writing.

David Melding AC: I want to concentrate on the literature part of your statement, and in particular that great source of innovation and entrepreneurship, and I’m talking about the small independent bookshop. Now, this sector has been cut back over the years as the likes of Amazon have come on, but those that survive are outstanding businesses, with great connections to the local community, involved in all sorts of events. Can I here commend Griffin Books in Penarth for the literary lectures they run, the events for children and young people to promote interest in books and also for the Penarth Literature Festival? It’s an outstanding programme that is run from this one independent bookshop. I might invite you, indeed, in July—your former colleague Huw Lewis will be taking part in the Penarth Literature Festival, when we’ll be talking about his childhood memoir, about being brought up in Aberfan. So, there are outstanding events.I would also say that serendipity plays a great part in literature, just going in, talking to people who are very knowledgeable about a subject and looking at the shelves. The great thing about a smaller bookshop is the wonderful selection that has usually been made by the people running that shop. That, I think, is always a rich source to draw on and you have access to some of the finest literature out there. So, I do hope the new structures will ensure that that sector continues to get support and that that’s even increased for the likes of literary events.Can I, in the same breath, commend the role of micropublishers that I know many of us have followed, including Lee Waters there, in publishing some highly innovative literature that then becomes mainstream, but not at first? In particular, poetry is often reliant on these much smaller publishers, and, of course, they are now also benefiting from the digital age. We’ve heard some of that, but, again, some targeted resources there to enable those platforms to develop will continue to support the wonderful, rich literary heritage we have in Wales.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank David Melding for his contribution? If my diary allows, I’d very much like to take up the invitation in July.Something in the region of 1,000 people in Wales are employed in bookshops and by publishers. This is a significant number, but, as I said earlier, it’s of greater significance to some of those rural communities that really do depend on a vibrant town centre or town high street, and based on, in turn, a vibrant and mixed economy. Bookshops are incredibly important. I go to places like Hay-on-Wye or, indeed, to towns closer to where I live, such as Mold, and those independent bookshops are absolutely crucial in adding value to the cultural and retail offer of town centres. The review does make recommendations primarily focused on what the Welsh Books Council can do to support the publishing sector and independent bookstores to rise to the challenge of wholesale threats, but also to become more innovative and more distinctive in the offer. It’s not just about taking the established approach of diversifying what you offer, although that can be successful. Again, in some towns, there are independent bookstores that have cafes, and it can work in some areas, but it goes beyond that; it’s about embracing innovation in terms of how you offer a service that is bespoke and truly independent. As we look, across Government, at the changing face and nature of the working environment and changes in terms of retail and the high street, I think it’s important that we support—through not just the Welsh Books Council, but other organisations and bodies, such as Business Wales—local independent bookshops to become vibrant not just in the daytime but also potentially in the evening as well. We’re trying to encourage right now the night-time economy in our high streets, and I think bookshops, as well as other retailers, can offer a distinctive evening opportunity for people to gather, for people to learn and for people to purchase. This was established in the United States many, many years ago, but it was driven largely by the multinationals who offered a coffee shop in every one of their huge gargantuan bookstores, but, thankfully, local independent bookstores in the United States responded, they competed, and, as a consequence, many are thriving. I’d like to see the same in Wales.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

5. 5. Statement: Successful Futures: An Update on Digital

The next item on our agenda is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education on ‘Successful Futures: An Update on Digital’. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make her statement—Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. As I have said before in this Chamber, education reform is our national mission, and I am determined to ensure that our young people have the opportunity to reach their full potential.The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development recently published a report on our reforms, acknowledging the widespread commitment to improving teaching and learning in Wales’s schools. One of the key areas highlighted in the report as having made ‘good progress’ has been at the vanguard of our reforms—the development of our learners’ digital skills. From the outset, we have been clear that being digitally competent is one of the fundamental pillars of a modern education. That is why digital competence was identified as the third cross-curricular responsibility, alongside literacy and numeracy, and why we fast-tracked the supporting framework, which was made available in September 2016. The digital competence framework—the DCF—developed by leading-edge digital pioneer schools, regional consortia and Estyn, embeds digital skills and knowledge across pupils’ learning experiences as they progress through school, and will see teachers increasingly apply relevant digital skills in their lessons.Since its launch there have been a number of developments to support teachers to weave digital skills into their teaching. A curriculum mapping tool was published last term to help schools plot their journey through the DCF, and an updated professional learning needs tool on Hwb helps identify teachers’ skills needs and the most appropriate development opportunities for the workforce.Our digital pioneers are now creating classroom tasks for schools featuring innovative and practical ideas on how to use the DCF as part of their daily practice, and a new professional learning approach will be available from the autumn term—again, developed by teachers, for teachers.But, of course, support for digital did not simply start with the DCF. Through the Learning in Digital Wales programme, significant progress has been made in a number of key areas. For example, since the launch of Hwb, around three quarters of schools are counted as actively engaged in using that platform, and I’m pleased to report that usage is increasing. In March, Hwb received over 3.2 million page views and averaged over 28,000 logins each day, which has significantly exceeded the original expectations for the project. These figures confirm that Hwb is now a staple resource in Welsh classrooms. However, we are constantly looking to innovate and to improve the platform. Therefore, I’m pleased to announce a series of updates and exciting new developments to ensure that Hwb continues to meet stakeholders’ needs and keeps pace with the relevant digital advances.A new user interface will further enhance teachers’ and learners’ experience of Hwb, and will give quicker access to the tools and functions that are most commonly used, all developed following feedback from teachers and the regional education consortia. Looking ahead, and considering future requirements, we know that demand for broadband speed in schools will continue to increase. It is simply unacceptable for a school to be at a significant disadvantage due to poor internet speeds. Ensuring that every school, no matter where they are based, has access to superfast broadband remains a priority of mine, which is why, last September, I announced a further investment of £5 million to address this issue. Final scoping for this work has been completed, and 341 schools across Wales will be eligible to benefit from this investment, which includes provision of 100 Mbps to every special school in Wales. Orders for the new services have started to be placed, with the first delivery of the new circuits expected early in the academic year 2017-18. In addition to this, my officials will continue to identify where additional improvements can be made to network resilience and centralised services, such as web filtering, to ensure that schools in Wales have the best access to ICT services possible.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Kirsty Williams AC: But my ambition for learners does not stop here. I want our learners to go further than just using the tools and infrastructure that we have made available. I want them to move from being users of technology to being creative authors. Learners’ ability to write code is a key aspect of that ambition and is far broader than just using technology. It is about problem solving, being creative, and doing things in a different and fun way. Being able to code cuts across so many subject areas and so many exciting careers, and has the ability to open up new opportunities for young people and teachers. Next week, Deputy Presiding Officer, I will be announcing plans for how we are going further to support our learners to develop coding skills in and around the classroom. I will be setting out what Welsh Government will be doing, working with the regional education consortia, universities, businesses, and the third sector to expand the network of code clubs in every part of Wales. The approach will focus on support for teachers, closer engagement between schools and creative partners, and a stronger role on parental engagement.I’d like to finish this update by fulfilling another of the OECD’s recommendations for education in Wales, and that is being better at celebrating our successes. Our approach was recently described by Microsoft as ‘world leading’, and that we are ‘leading the charge’ by threading digital competence throughout the curriculum. Next week, I will be speaking to 350 teachers at the national digital learning event and awards to continue to celebrate the current best practice in our schools. This is an ambitious, exciting, and innovative agenda, where we can be proud that Wales is leading the way for our teachers and for our learners.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement and for an advance copy of the statement, which was distributed earlier on today? I want to welcome the announcement of the additional £5 million today in order to improve broadband speeds at our schools. We know that it’s only as recently as this year—earlier this year—that some schools have actually had a broadband connection at all, which I think we all agree is completely unacceptable. We clearly need now to make sure that we are absolutely at the vanguard of taking advantage of the opportunities that broadband and superfast broadband access actually provide. My party certainly recognises the importance of ensuring that our children and young people are digitally equipped for the twenty-first century, and that's one of the reasons why we brought forward a debate just a few weeks ago on things like internet safety—and, of course, the importance of coding is something that we've raised in the past, too. So, I'm very pleased that some important progress is being made on those matters, and I was particularly pleased to hear you make reference to having appropriate web filters in place in our schools as well.I think that it is absolutely right to celebrate success, and I also want to congratulate the Welsh Government on the establishment of Hwb, and it's nice to see that it's getting some attention internationally. Unfortunately, as we all know, we've had too much international attention for our lacklustre performance in recent years, so it's nice, actually, to be leading on something, and I think that this is something that we can really continue to trumpet in the future.I think it is concerning that we've still got a quarter of our schools—one in four—not accessing the Hwb on a regular basis. You made reference to the fact that 75 per cent of our schools actually are. That still means we've got a quarter that aren't making use of the wonderful resource that is there, available to them. I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, what work you’re going to be doing to encourage them to take advantage of it, because we know that many schools are finding that they’re having a much richer experience in terms of being able to use those online resources and to bring them and introduce them into the classroom.Can I also ask you—? In terms of the higher broadband speeds, of course they’re important, but it's also important that we've got an IT infrastructure that can take advantage of that. I've been in to many schools that are using sometimes quite old equipment that might be in need of an upgrade, and I wonder what work you are going to be doing with local authorities to make sure that there’s proper investment in the IT infrastructures in our schools, to make sure that it's up to scratch and that the higher speed broadband services are actually going to be worthwhile, being used on some of that older equipment. Can you also tell us what you're doing to ensure that those pupils, particularly those who are digitally disadvantaged by not having a broadband connection in their own home, don't fall behind in this digital revolution that we’re having in our schools? Because, obviously, if a child, if a learner, goes home and they're not able to do their homework online in the same way as other children, or to continue to develop those skills that they've been learning in the classroom, then I think it's important that we try to have a strategy to overcome that, and I wonder what thoughts the Cabinet Secretary has on how we can do that in a successful way and what discussions she might have had with the Minister for science and technology about the Superfast Cymru roll-out? I note that there is a statement on the roll-out of Superfast Cymru this afternoon.Can you also tell us when you're going to publish the action plan in terms of the internet safety action plan that was referred to a few weeks ago in the Chamber, when you made an important announcement that you were going to develop that? Because, obviously, these things go hand in hand. If we're going to have more access to the internet, then we've got to make sure that that is absolutely safe access and that any guidelines for its use are developed alongside this rapidly developing arena, particularly for children and young people who might be vulnerable when using the IT systems.And, just finally, can you assure us that you will be keeping us up to date on these developments? As I say, I think it is exciting. It's nice to know that we’re at the top of the tree as far as this issue is concerned, and that we're getting some international plaudits, but we also need to make sure that we're constantly and regularly informed about progress so that we can ensure that Wales continues to have that lead position, not just within the UK, but around the world. Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Darren, for your comments and your questions. As I said in my statement, equity of access to these facilities is very important to me, and you are right to say that, until recently, some schools were not in a position to access the DCF and do the kind of work they wanted to do in digital terms because of a lack of infrastructure. The previous Government had made a commitment to minimum speeds for schools and, unfortunately, on coming into office, I found that there were a number of schools that were not reaching that target. I'm very pleased to say that all schools are reaching the minimum target now. Those problems have been sorted out, and all schools are now at a minimum.The £5 million—and I should be clear; it’s not an announcement today, it’s money that I’ve announced previously, and I’m reporting back to the Assembly today on the usage of that £5 million, for clarity’s sake. The £5 million investment will be able to further enhance facilities for 341 schools. Those decisions have been made in collaboration with local authorities around capacity they know is problematical, growth in demand and where they feel that there are particular pinch points, and, importantly for me, to improve capacity in our special schools. Under the previous target, special schools were given the same minimum speeds as primary schools. That was done usually on the basis of their rolls being smaller than a secondary school, but of course our special schools often have secondary-age pupils in them, and it seems to me only fair that they have access to what they would have if they were in mainstream secondary school, and also because of the very innovative way many of our special schools use digital technology to access learning opportunities for many of their learners. So, I’m particularly pleased that we’ve been able to address that in the investment.Darren, you’re also correct that the gubbins outside the school is one thing, but if we haven’t got a proper infrastructure within the school, then this investment will not reach its full potential. Sometimes when I visit schools, people complain to me about a lack of broadband, but actually it’s connectivity issues within the school building itself that are the cause of the problem. So, we will continue to work with local authorities to look at local networks, the capacity of Wi-Fi within an individual school building, and also, crucially, support from the centre—our councils—to schools in the use of their ICT. We will need them to continue to do that.We also need to challenge some behaviours. You talked about web filters and protecting children, but sometimes web filters can be used in a way that actually confines what we can do with ICT. I’m aware of one particular local authority in Wales where the web filter does not allow Skyping. So, in one county we can have schoolchildren Skyping with an Antarctic explorer, literally down in the south pole, and they can have that conversation with that explorer, but in another authority, because of issues around web filters, they cannot use Skype. So, we need to address those kinds of issues that are confining our ability to use this technology.You said about literacy disadvantage. I am aware that some schools use their pupil deprivation grant to address some of this. In fact, in Bryn Elian, where you and I went to visit, you will be aware that that school sends Raspberry Pis home with children so that actually they can do their work in their home environment. So, for those children whose parents perhaps haven’t got those resources, the school makes an effort to ensure that that isn’t the case. That’s a really good example of good practice in your constituency that I would commend. As you will be aware and as you referred to, my colleague will make a statement later on roll-out of superfast broadband, and I’m particularly keen that nobody is disadvantaged. Many of these children have to go home at the end of the school day because of school transport issues, and if they’re in a community that doesn’t have access to this technology, they are indeed at a disadvantage. There isn’t a day goes by when my daughters don’t come from school and their homework demands of them some research on the internet.With regards to safety, Hwb has many resources with regard to internet safety, and we continue to work very closely in ensuring that our children have the skills, the knowledge and the wherewithal to keep themselves safe online. I will be publishing that report as quickly as possible. I am keen to do that in a timely fashion.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I also welcome your statement this afternoon and welcome, once again, that digital competence is a cross—curricular aspect and a central part of education planning by this Government? Plaid Cymru, of course, in the past has called for digital literacy to be placed on an equal footing with numeracy and literacy, and clearly we therefore welcome every move in that direction.May I also bear witness, as a parent, to the success of Hwb? Certainly, in our house, the children are far more willing to go and do their work on Hwb rather than getting to grips with their books. One would recognise that we need both, of course, but certainly its contribution is very great, and one to be welcomed, and once that can be built on further, as the Cabinet Secretary has already suggested.As we’ve heard, getting broadband to more schools is one thing, of course. Ensuring that the infrastructure is in place is another thing. But, of course, what is also needed is to ensure that the hardware is available, because I know of one school, for example, where if more than two pupils are using an iPad at the same time, then the whole system will crash. But in having broadband in place, then you need 20 pupils all using iPads, but the school doesn’t have 20 iPads. Therefore, we need capital investment in buying equipment to take full advantage of that new infrastructure that will be put in place.In a climate where school budgets are reducing, I know of another school, for example, where they need to spend £5,000 to £7,000 on purchasing equipment if they are going to go into an agreement with another provider for IT services. That can be difficult. So, I don’t know what consideration the Cabinet Secretary has given to possibly creating some sort of fund or providing some practical support to the schools who will need to take full advantage of the broadband capacity that will be available to them, in order to ensure that their pupils get the maximum benefit from that investment.I have also heard the point about the fact that some people don’t have access to the internet, but there are others who have access to the internet at home but it’s not good enough. I am one of them. My children have often started to work on Hwb but have failed to complete their work because the broadband provision isn’t sufficient to maintain their session. So, that question remains. You refer in your statement to parental engagement. Well, the engagement that I get with Hwb is one of complete frustration when the system doesn’t work because of those problems. We may hear more about that in a later statement.I don’t need to remind you, but a workforce survey by the Education Workforce Council recently found that ICT and digital skills was one of the areas where the workforce was saying that they feel that they need far more training—46 per cent, I think, said that they felt that they needed enhanced training in this area.Now, you did refer to opportunities that are to be announced next week, perhaps, but I would like to know what arrangements are in place to ensure that this potential is fully delivered, because time for training is the issue that I’ve raised with you in the past. It’s difficult to see—if we are to make full use of the opportunities before us, then we must ensure that the workforce has the necessary skills, particularly when we’re talking about the development of coding, and more activities around that, which require a higher level of skill in this particular area.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Llyr, for your support for the importance of digital competency and recognising that if we are to give our children the very best opportunities to compete in the global market place, being digitally competent is absolutely crucial to them. With regard to Hwb—and apologies for not answering Darren Millar’s question in the first session—it is very encouraging to see the increasing usage of Hwb, and a recognition of the value the resources that are available on Hwb can play.I’m also very pleased to engage with a wide number of stakeholders who also see value in working on educational resources that, as long as they’re bilingual and we have checked them, we are happy to host. So, for instance, I recently took part in an event with the fire services of Wales—they are sharing their resources on Hwb. The National Farmers’ Union Wales have shared their resources on Hwb, and I know that, for instance, this summer, in the Royal Welsh Show, Hybu Cig Cymru will be launching some educational resources that we hope to be able to host on Hwb. So, it’s great to see not only schools engaging, but a wide range of organisations throughout Wales that see this as a valuable way of engaging with schoolchildren.But, you’re right; we need to identify which schools are not engaging with Hwb and understand the reasons why that is and what we’re going to do to address those barriers. Are there barriers around infrastructure? I hope that the investment that we’re making means that that no longer becomes an issue in terms of superfast broadband and adequate broadband speeds to the schools themselves.I’ve not been made aware that hardware is a particular issue, but undoubtedly I’m aware that parents and PTAs and friends of schools are often working really, really hard in this area to make those resources available for our young people, and I will keep under review whether this is a barrier to schools using our particular platforms. In-school infrastructure can be a problem and, as I said to Darren Millar, we’re working with local authorities to try and address that. Broadband connections at the home is not my job. My job is to get the broadband connections to the school. We’ve got everybody up to the minimum speed. We’re improving that with 341 schools. But I’m sure Julie James later on will explain very clearly how the Government intends to make sure that broadband connections for home usage are what we would all want them to be.Professional learning is absolutely key and we need to work on this on a number of levels. You will be aware, as I mentioned in my statement, that the first thing we need to do is to be able to assess what the professional learning needs are. That’s why the Hwb self-assessment tool, which has now been renamed the DCF professional learning needs tool, is being developed by our pioneer schools. The updated version is now available. It’s got new functionality attached to it. That supports teachers in assessing their skills and their confidence. It supports DCF co-ordinators in schools to identify professional learning needs within their own individual school and it’s there to assist and develop professional support for staff. It also allows local education authorities and consortia to identify what the learning needs are in their particular area so they can adapt their professional learning programmes and what’s available to meet those needs.So, identifying the need is one thing and then we need to look at what those offers are. And those offers are many and varied. So, for instance, I recently launched Barefoot resources on Hwb at Cadoxton Primary School in Barry. Barefoot resources have teach-yourself material specifically for staff. Yesterday, I was in a school in Llandough with the Cabinet Secretary for health, and the teachers there said that they’ve had great enjoyment learning side-by-side with their pupils and actually, getting pupils to explain to them not only increased their skills but that’s a great way of testing learning. If a pupil can explain to you what is going on, that’s a really great way of knowing that learning is being embedded as well as developing other skills. But we need a national approach and that is being developed. Welsh Government previously has funded a number of posts to train teachers in the use of Hwb. And, as I said, the ongoing professional learning needs of our staff will be absolutely crucial in delivering this agenda.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I certainly welcome your statement about the future investment in coding. I think that’s very encouraging and I do hope, given the opportunities there are from coding, that the announcement is of a sufficient scale to be able to take advantage of those opportunities. I also acknowledge your remarks about the DCF and Hwb being hailed across the world and we should congratulate all those involved in those projects to get that kind of recognition. But, of course, we should be cautious. We’re not short of our strategies being recognised across the world as being innovative, but we know that the implementation of them is the tricky bit. And we should be worried about Estyn’s comments in the last chief inspector’s annual report about the level of digital excellence in schools across Wales. Though, of course, that does raise the question of whether or not Estyn are best placed to make those judgments. Would Estyn recognise good practice in digital learning and do they have the skills and capacity to be able to be in a position to make assessments of that? I ask the Cabinet Secretary to say something about that. My primary question though, Cabinet Secretary, is about the need for leadership in this area and the need for headteachers and school leadership teams to see digital learning just as important as numeracy and literacy and what the Government is doing to ensure that the new national academy for educational leadership instils digital leadership amongst future heads on an equal basis.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Lee, for that. As you said, implementation is everything and the document in itself will not get us there. I think what is absolutely clear is that, in ensuring successful implementation, we need a number of factors. We need individual teachers who feel confident and skilled in the use of the DCF, and I outlined to Llyr some of the proactive ways in which we are making those professional learning opportunities available to existing teachers. We need to make sure that, in our initial teacher education, training our new generation of teachers, when they are looking at issues of pedagogy around literacy and numeracy, this will form part of our new ITE offer so that teachers coming out of our institutes of higher education already have these skills and feel confident and knowledgeable about how digital literacy can work through all of their lessons.Leadership, as always in all aspects of school improvement and raising standards in our schools, is absolutely clear. Programmes that will be delivered by the leadership academy are currently being developed, but given the importance of digital competency alongside numeracy and literacy, as the three underpinning themes of our educational reform journey, one would expect and, indeed, require the ability of school leaders to demonstrate their commitment and their competency in this particular field. With regard to assessment and who is best to judge what goes on in our schools, I think, like any organisation as new technology develops, an organisation has to test itself as to whether it has the right approaches to be making judgments on others. As you’ll be aware, Estyn are already reviewing and have made adaptations to their current schools inspection framework. They’re currently developing a new framework for how they inspect individual local education authorities, but I’m sure Estyn would be the first to say that their overall approach to how Estyn can contribute to school improvement, and its role in our national mission of education improvement, will have to be looked at at some stage.

Thank you. And finally, Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. I welcome your commitment to the objective of ensuring that all pupils in Wales are digitally competent by the time they leave school. In modern workplaces, there are few jobs that don’t require at least some level of competence with digital technology, and few areas of life where it does not now not extend. I’m therefore pleased that such skills are part and parcel of the curriculum. I also welcome the Welsh Government’s efforts to educate pupils about cyber-bullying through the digital competence framework. The introduction of a curriculum mapping tool and updated professional needs tools is welcome, and from what you tell us about take-up of the new online resources, it would appear that teachers and pupils find them useful. I welcome your efforts as well to assist and support teachers in developing their teaching to keep up to date in a fast-changing environment. You state that a new professional learning approach will be available from the autumn term. This concept sounds interesting, but you haven’t provided any information in your statement about what this might entail, and what the new approach is likely to look like. So, please would you provide some further information on this? The uptake of Hwb by users would indicate that the resources are at least popular, and I welcome that Hwb’s ongoing development is off the back of feedback from teachers and regional educational consortia. I am pleased at the Cabinet Secretary’s efforts to include such stakeholders in the development of online resources, but it also makes me wonder why parents are not accorded the same privilege, to have their views properly canvassed and taken into account in reports into the quality of schools, in the same way that teachers and regional consortia’s views are being canvassed and considered about the quality of online resources. Greater reliance on online tools and IT in the classroom will, of course, lead to an increased demand on school broadband, and I agree with you that it’s unacceptable for a school to be at a disadvantage due to poor internet speed. I therefore welcome the additional funds that the Cabinet Secretary has set aside for the improvement of broadband in schools. However, can the Cabinet Secretary please set out what the eligibility criteria are for investment from that fund for school broadband, and on what grounds would a school be denied that funding? What provisions are there in place for a school denied funding for improvement to their broadband to appeal the refusal of funding? I note the Cabinet Secretary’s comments about the development of coding skills in schools. In principle, teaching pupils the basic skills that will enable them to take up technological jobs is welcome. Teaching those skills in an effort to better equip school leavers for the world of employment and to stimulate interest in studying coding and data security, et cetera, is essential if we’re going to produce our own IT specialists, rather than effectively outsourcing such training and education to other countries. I am therefore looking forward to hearing your statement on the development of coding skills next week. Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Michelle, for the comments and the questions. I think what is absolutely crucial is that we enable our children to have the knowledge of how they can stay safe online, how they can use technology in everyday life, but also, crucially, as you said at the end, that their knowledge goes beyond that and they actually understand the workings of how that technology is being put together and take advantage of the significant employment opportunities that will exist in having coding skills.I don’t want to prejudge what I will say next week about the Government’s strategy on coding, but to be clear, it’s my ambition that more children should have access to those skills and to those opportunities, and that goes beyond children. I’m working very closely with my Cabinet colleague for skills to see how those skills can be rolled out to adult learners, and how people, perhaps who are not currently in the workplace, can acquire those skills. They are skills that mean that logistical disadvantage, i.e. you’re stuck in a community with low transport links to be able to get to a big city, if the superfast broadband infrastructure is good enough, you can do that from your home. If you have caring responsibilities and you can’t work away from home, you can code and work for a company successfully in your own home. So, actually, this goes beyond coding simply for younger people, it is about using these skills to be able to empower the Welsh workforce as a whole.With regard to criteria, for the 341 schools that have been supported by this £5 million, those conversations have been had with individual local authorities that have identified schools that have significant problems in increasing their broadband speeds, whose rolls, perhaps, are increasing because of the merger of schools or the closure of schools, and a re-establishment of a different pattern within the school means it might struggle, as well as identifying resources for our special schools, which, as I outlined, originally had lower speeds set for them and we wanted to address that because of the individual specific needs that special schools have regarding this type of technology. We will constantly keep under review the adequacy of the infrastructure that is available.With regard to coding, as I said, that’s really important and parents are an important part of this whole discussion; this isn’t about excluding parents from this discussion. Many schools, I know, work very closely with their parental communities to share good practice, to share, for instance, internet safety advice, to be able to give after-school opportunities for parents to come in and understand what they can do simply at home with filters, et cetera, to keep their children safe online. So, this is not about excluding parents from this; actually, we want to increase parental engagement and understanding of how these resources can greatly aid their children’s academic and educational attainment.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

6. 6. Statement: The Genomics for Precision Medicine Strategy

We now move on to the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport on the genomics—genomics; that’s right, yes—for precision medicine strategy. Sorry, I’ve had new glasses and I can’t read properly. So, I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport, Vaughan Gething, to introduce the statement.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.On 12 April this year, I published the genomics for precision medicine strategy consultation. The strategy outlines our plan to harness new genomics technologies to improve the health and prosperity of the people of Wales. Through the strategy, we want people across Wales to have access to quicker, more accurate diagnosis and better information to support treatment decisions. We also want to apply the latest techniques for improved disease prediction and gain a better understanding of disease outbreaks.New genetic and genomic technologies are allowing us to develop a much more detailed understanding of the link between our genes and our health. Traditional laboratory genetic tests apply sequencing methods that analyse a single gene or part of a gene to identify DNA changes that cause illnesses. However, the recent emergence of newer, next-generation sequencing techniques has enabled the study of tens, hundreds or thousands of genes, or even the whole of a person’s DNA, or genome, at the same time. Parallel developments in IT, data storage, sharing and analytics have enabled us to scrutinise, observe and analyse the vast amount of information that is generated by this type of sequencing. The pace of change in this area is rapid and the cost of genomic technologies continues to fall. The strategy provides a basis for us to capture the health and economic benefits of these technologies for the people of Wales.The new genetic and genomic technologies are playing an increasing role in the delivery of modern medicine. They are having an impact on a wider number of clinical specialties, enabling clinicians to better understand a patient’s individual disease and provide more accurate and timely diagnoses. They are also enablers for precision medicine: the development of targeted treatments for individuals, rather than the population as a whole. For example, our understanding of the genetic basis of cancer now supports the provision of targeted therapies to patients. In lung cancer, for example, four genetic markers have been identified, and these allow clinicians to give the treatments most likely to stop the growth of tumours, shrink them and lengthen quality and duration of life. As there are frequently multiple genetic markers for each disease, it is more cost efficient and quicker to test for all, or several, genes at the same time. Through the strategy, funding will be provided for the NHS all-Wales medical genetics service to deliver gene panel analysis to look at multiple targets for lung cancer simultaneously. This will allow clinicians to make better decisions about treatment options and also allow patients to take part in innovative clinical trials.In rare diseases, genetic and genomic technologies are enabling quicker and more accurate diagnoses. Most rare diseases have a genetic basis, but it often takes a long time for patients to receive a diagnosis, if they do at all. And that leaves patients and their families with little information about the risks for their family and the options for treatment or the management of their condition. What’s more, in complex conditions like some intellectual disabilities, over 1,000 genes are involved. The ability to analyse a greater number of genes simultaneously will mean that more patients with rare diseases and intellectual disability will have access to the most up-to-date technologies for a quicker, more accurate diagnosis.The strategy, though, is not just about pushing more DNA through sequencers and crunching data. It’s also about co-production of services that will support the public, or patient, in accessing the most accurate test in a timely manner. And, importantly, it’s about what happens next, once we get the result that may affect not just our future selves, but also the future of others close to us. The very nature of genes and DNA means that our problem can be passed on to our loved ones. Genetic counsellors and other medical professionals work tirelessly at the interface of genomics and the human condition, to clarify the impact that this knowledge may have on our health, well-being and the support that we may need.It is clear that patient benefits in this field will not be delivered by the NHS in isolation. Links to research and industry activities are more important than ever, and the wider ecosystem for genomics must be aligned to maximise health and economic benefits for Wales. In addition to developing new services for patients in Wales, the strategy outlines actions to develop research in genetics and genomics, to grow knowledge and skills amongst the NHS and non-NHS workforce, and to build precision strategic partnerships in genomics for precision medicine. In this highly competitive and rapidly expanding field, it is important that Wales is able to work together with partners on an international stage, as this attracts additional funding, supports the development of the skills base in Wales, and underpins the faster adoption of new treatments for patient benefit.With Welsh Government support, Wales is joining the 100,000 Genomes project through partnership with Genomics England. This will enable Welsh patients with specific rare diseases to take part in a large, cutting-edge research project, with the potential to receive quicker and more accurate diagnoses that may come from whole genome sequencing. The project has attracted £1 million in funding from the Medical Research Council, allied to £2.3 million of Welsh Government funding, and is supporting high-quality jobs and bringing additional economic benefits here to Wales.The genomics for precision medicine strategy was developed by the genomics taskforce, built upon close working between colleagues in the Welsh Government, the NHS, the third sector and higher education institutions. The taskforce has worked hard to consult throughout the process, and to ensure that as many stakeholders as possible have been able to have their say in the development of the strategy. The strategy now focuses on developing genomics capabilities, because these technologies are becoming increasingly affordable and having a positive impact on precision medicine and the management of infectious diseases. Investment in genomics alone, though, will not be sufficient to deliver precision medicine. Other technologies such as imaging, molecular studies, real-time monitoring of illness and data analytics all play an important role, alongside traditional clinical methods of assessing an individual’s disease. These diagnostics, of course, need to be integrated with the development of new targeted therapeutics, involving advanced therapeutics arising from cell and gene therapy approaches.It is clear that the challenges ahead are great, as they are in many other areas of medicine and the health service. Further partnership will, of course, be necessary to make precision medicine routine practice in our national health service. But this genomics for precision medicine strategy underpins what should be a bright future to capture the health and economic benefits of genomics technologies within Wales.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. Genomics has enabled groundbreaking advances in research and medicinal applications, and I believe holds an enormous hope for us all in the future. We all know of the crisis facing humans, because of the overuse of antibiotics and the ever-mutating bacteria that produce the superbugs that seem to survive all. Finding alternatives for the treatment of illnesses that are caused by antibiotic-resistant bacteria is dependent on the study of bacteriophage genomics. Being able to maximise on our drugs’ efficiency and toxicity will be key in optimising drug therapy. So, the Welsh Conservatives welcome this focus on the area of precision medicine, and the consultation and subsequent strategy have set parameters within which we can explore how we can develop Wales’s abilities to play a crucial role in the development of precision medicines.Now, studying the report, Cabinet Secretary, I do have four questions that I would just like to ask for further expansion on. Priority 2 mentions IT infrastructure requirements. Now, there’s obviously a need for high-quality, reliable communications infrastructure to be in place to allow these facilities to grow across Wales, and not just in urban centres, particularly if they’re going to be allied to universities and to various hospital research centres. So, what guarantees can the Cabinet Secretary give us that all corners of Wales will be linked up to a fast communication network so that we can really, really maximise on this? In my own constituency, I have a number of highly innovative companies that deliver targeted, precision medicinal implements around the world and that have built businesses that are doing incredibly well, but they have had to face the communications challenge again and again and again to enable their businesses and their research facilities, and the collaboration that they have with partners across the world to really grow. So, that would be my absolute first question.Secondly, the strategy acknowledges that large data sets are an essential tool and that there are challenges with respect to the anonymisation of data. It also talks of the need to access patient samples and of the integration with SAIL. What processes, Cabinet Secretary, are in place to protect data, to protect the patient and patient confidentiality? Cyber attacks are a growing threat, and I think we must be mindful of security. I think it’s very important, as well, that we make sure that patients are completely secure in knowing that if they put forward any part of their treatment or their results for analysis in these data sets, it won’t be held against them or their successors, especially in terms of insurance claims, with insurance companies always wanting to know what people’s genetic histories are, and that whole growing industry that’s beginning to evolve. So, I’d like to really understand the security elements of it.Cabinet Secretary, what support have you put in place for getting people trained in this field within Wales? Perhaps you could outline what steps are being taken with the health boards, with the research institutions and with the universities to get more of our young people interested in this growing and vitally important area.Finally, in the report, it mentions that‘A business case will be developed by the end of 2017’regarding the siting of a genomics laboratory. I just wondered what progress has been made on this.This is a really exciting area of research. I absolutely welcome the statement, and I would encourage you, and I would want to support you, in putting as much effort and money as we can into this area, because I truly believe this is one way of not only protecting ourselves in the future, but of addressing the vast health inequalities we have, not just in our country, but throughout the world.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and questions. It’s interesting that you started with antimicrobial resistance—your sage colleague to your immediate right was part of the cross-party group on science and, actually, this was a subject of the conversation that we had last week with both David Rees and Simon Thomas—so, germane challenges for the here and now, as well as for the future, in the way in which we develop our ability to understand human conditions, and also, then, to help to treat and anticipate them.Turning to your questions about the communication challenge, well, some of this is, if you like, the technical challenge of how you get data transferred, but I think a lot of it is actually cultural, and that’s why the genomics taskforce has actually been really instrumental in actually going proactively out to stakeholders, to want to talk to them, with the number of consultation responses that have come in, and I then expect to come back on the back of the advice that I will get from the taskforce, having had the consultation, to then announce the next stage on how we develop that. It is important that we have channels that are open, and a culture that is open about how people are able to talk to each other. Because, as I’ve said in my statement, this requires the national health service, the university sector, but it also requires the third sector and, indeed, industry to be part of the answer. And that is partly my point about how we actually pool our research, because whilst there’ll be a central laboratory function, and actually having the Wales genomic centre, a lot of that has to be virtual because you can’t expect to dissipate all of those staff around the country, but they have to be able to understand what happens within this country and, indeed, the collaboration with England—we’re part of the 100,000 Genomes Project—as well as on a wider basis, too, as well. So, I do take on board the challenge that you raise in making sure that it isn’t simply a closed shop for a small group of people in one part of the country to participate. That certainly isn’t the approach we’re taking. I hope that assurance is helpful.On protecting data, of course, the recent cyber security attacks have highlighted the challenges that exist because there are always a group of clever unscrupulous people who are prepared to try and harvest data for their own ends. Whilst we were in a much better position than England in terms of what happened with the recent attack, none of us should take that for granted or to be triumphant about it. We need to constantly reassure ourselves that the way in which we use data is both ethical, but also that we actually properly protect sensitive patient and staff data in the way we use that across the system. The SAIL data is a good example of where we’ve got anonymised data that is of a real benefit. It’s a good example also of being a small country that can make choices on a national basis and trying to have a real sense of national mission. That’s more about what we need to do, but that will also go into the way in which we deal with clinical trials. In a number of areas in Wales, we do very well with clinical trials, but we also need to recognise that there are areas where we could do better still as well. I think this is an area where we think we could do better still again, to build on our current strengths but to also understand where we think there is a different level of both ambition and achievement to be set as well. Again, I recognise the points you make about properly protecting patient data in the way we set up our systems—both the hardware, the software, and the culture of actually the way in which those data are used.On the points about investing in the workforce, this is one of the five themes from the action points that have come out in the strategy we’ve just consulted on—how we understand properly how we invest in our workers, to get right some of the—[Inaudible.]—with my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Education, talking about how we get things right and about the culture of our schools. So, we understand the way in which we both need new skills and acquire those new skills from the workforce of the next generation—that we’re looking after you and me in our, hopefully, old age when we reach it, if we reach it, but also about what happens in the here and now for the people already going into our system. That’s part of the reason why the collaboration with both industry and the university sector is really important, because the workforce isn’t simply going to be about how the NHS plans its individual part of it, too. Although, in that we expect to see INTPs as we develop the strategy, and as we conclude what the strategy will be at the end of the consultation response to it, and how we expect to see that set out in individual health boards and trusts organisation INTPs, but also the work with the all-Wales medical genetic service, together with the new health education body that we’re going to create. We’ll need to take steps on the creation of that over the course of this year, in shadow form, to get ready for April 2018, when it’s up and running. So, there is an honest recognition that is set out in the strategy about what we’ll need to do and how we plan for that workforce and how we obviously—and, again, there are ethical challenges in this, too—map out a service where the health service has a very definite interest in the data that we use, that are given to the health service, and how we actually work, in a grown-up way, with people in industry as well as the higher education research sector, but you’ve got the same—[Inaudible.]—protecting the ethos of what we want to do, and the value of what we do, as opposed to giving that information to someone else to sell back to us at a profit. So, there are challenges in that, but that goes into workforce development, too.This is particularly interesting because it is new, and we’re making choices now that we haven’t had to make, but also it goes into your point that there’s significant benefit to be gained, from a health gain point of view but also from an economic point of view as well.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I certainly welcome the consultation. This is, without doubt, an area of medical advancement that holds a huge amount of potential, as the Cabinet Secretary outlined. Of course, it fits into the agenda of disease prevention and early diagnosis as a means to improving outcomes for patients, plus, of course, saving money for the NHS. There are huge saving that can be made here through careful targeting of treatment using these new technologies, so any investment here is money well spent.I have three questions, the first of those linked to investment. What medium-term plans or longer term approximations is the Cabinet Secretary making for resource allocation in this new field of medical research and treatment, because this is something that will only develop and will only become more of a source of investing to save as time moves on?Secondly, the statement very clearly details the technical and scientific aspects of this developing technology, but not so much the ethical and emotional side. We have touched on the ethical side through reference to data in the questions from Angela Burns. But in terms of the emotional side of it, particularly perhaps related to prevention and prediction of illnesses—. There is evidence of a particular hereditary cancer in my family. My late mother’s DNA has been stored. I’ve chosen not to investigate whether I’m susceptible at this point. A close friend of mine produced a television programme looking at whether she was susceptible to the cancer that took her mother’s life, and she decided at the end of that journey that she didn’t wish to know if she had been pre-programmed. So, there are some very difficult emotional and ethical questions here. I wonder what plans there are to invest in that emotional support for families and individuals who find themselves in a place where, perhaps, this technology could be of use to them, but they have fears about what that would entail.Thirdly, this is, of course, a global project—a project where Wales can be proud of the innovations that we have contributed towards over the years. But many of our researchers, of course, will be engaged in pan-European research and frameworks. Will the Cabinet Secretary perhaps comment on what safeguards need to be put in place to protect that as we exit the European Union?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and questions. I will deal with your last point first. In many areas of scientific endeavour and research, we recognise there are real risks and challenges for the United Kingdom in the Brexit negotiations. We have been upfront about that in the discussions with your party, and in the White Paper that we have and in the ongoing conversations that will need to take place, not just with the research community, but also between the different Governments of the United Kingdom about our approach to that. Actually, we could have an exit that cuts off scientists—or, actually, if not cutting them off, making that collaboration more difficult. Whilst it would be a problem for Europe to be cut off or to make it more difficult to collaborate with scientists from the UK, actually, I think we would have more to lose from that in terms of the store of international knowledge that exists. So, this is definitely in our interests, and there is a lot of interest from a European point of view in maintaining that area of collaboration. None of us should take that for granted. It has to be very much part of the focus of all the Governments of the United Kingdom, about our negotiating position at a UK level, and equally, maintaining those relationships that exist. I recognise the significant concern that exists within the scientific and research community about our future relationship with European partners. On the broader points you made about financial savings and investing in this area, as I indicated, we invested £2.3 million for Wales to be part of the 100,000 Genomes Project. We are also investing £6.8 million over the next five years in this area, because we do recognise there’s a need for money to go into developing the service. But, equally, there’s something about understanding what happens after that, because, whilst there are medium and longer term savings to be made, we also know that, when new advances are made, they’re often expensive at the initial point in time. And this is a good point in case, because, actually, as the cost comes down, and it's more likely that we can use this in a more broad-based way in medicine and within diagnosing and then making treatment choices—just as we get every new stage of any precision medicine that comes forward, it is often very expensive at the start, and the challenge is how much progress we’re able to make in our understanding and then being able to make that generally therapeutic so we can understand how we then use that practically. But we do know that, through the savings that we’ll make, there'll also be difficult cost choices about new treatments, new therapies, that come on board, and I wouldn't want to try and shy away and pretend this is simply an area of health gain to be made at low cost. There will be difficult choices for you and me and every other politician in this Chamber to make about how and where we make those investment decisions over the rest of this Assembly term and in the future.Your final point, in which you mentioned about the broad area of genetic counselling, as I mentioned in my statement, we already have a team of genetic counsellors around a range of different conditions, not just the rare diseases and conditions that exist—but, lots of people, as they're going through and choosing to start a family, often there are choices that are made as a standard part of the IVF conversation, if families are going through that. They’ll have a conversation—they'll be referred to genetic counselling and have a conversation about what's possible, and that's an important part of that process. It's getting more mainstreamed as well. I think the challenge for us will be not just how we rely on a specific speciality within the health service, but, actually, how we normalise this as part of the conversation for healthcare professionals. And so, looking at colleagues sat over your right shoulder, in general practice, there’s a need to understand what this looks like, as well as in specialist areas of treatment beyond, and not just with doctors, but actually a whole range of other therapies, to understand, if we're having a conversation about treatment options, how would we, in a sensitive way, understand and lay out potential options for people about what they will choose to do. Because you're absolutely right: different people will make different choices, and this isn't an area where we’ll require people to act in a certain way. But it is how do we have an informed conversation with the citizen about the advances that are possible and how they can understand their potential risks and the informed choices they want to make.Again, you think about a range of areas in pregnancy and maternity: it's a choice about whether people want to have a range of tests about the health or the nature of their unborn child. And people already make those informed choices, because we've mainstreamed that conversation within our midwifery workforce, and it's done in a sensitive way with new parents. This is about another different level of conversations about different conditions, different risks that may be inherent in who we are and who we could be in the future, about how that conversation takes place in a way that is sensitive and highly professional and equips people to make those individual choices for them and their families.

Lee Waters AC: Cabinet Secretary, I'm genuinely excited about the potential of this strategy, not only as a health intervention, but as an economic intervention, too. Genomics is one of the fast-emerging industries of the much talked-about fourth industrial revolution. We’ve discussed some of the unparalleled health advantage—we're told we can expect cancer treatments, for example, 20 times more powerful than current interventions. But I am particularly encouraged that we've looked beyond the health impact to how we might position ourselves as a global leader in this mind-blowing science.But we do need to match our ambition with rigour, and I'd urge the Cabinet Secretary to be clearheaded in precisely where Wales’s competitive advantage in this huge and rapidly evolving field might lie. High-quality, foreign direct investment in life sciences, for example, is generally attracted to Cambridge or the M11 corridor, which could leave Wales just pitching for what is left behind. So, can I ask him to tell us how clear he is on precisely where we can bring a unique contribution to the table, where our existing expertise might offer us the competitive edge? And, once we're clear on that, then we must be ruthless in pursuing these opportunities. Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: It's an interesting point you make, and I'm delighted that there is something that Lee Waters has stood up and said he is genuinely excited by. But, you know, you raise an important point about how we do target our best areas to realise real gain, not just in health terms, but, you're right, about the economic sector. And, of course, the strategy was launched in 2013 jointly by the then Minister for Health and Social Services and the Minister with responsibility for the economy.It has always been a recognition about the dual benefit to be gained. You’re right about the life sciences sector as an area for growth that we’ve already seen, but it isn’t about trying to directly compete with what happens in and around Cambridge. There will be a range of people who will always choose to go there first, but, actually, what I think is genuinely encouraging is about the way in which we are setting ourselves up in Wales to understand a different sort of conversation with the pharmaceutical industry, who, after all, will still be significant players in investing in the future of medical research and innovation, and in which our higher education sector—and, going back to the points Angela Burns made, about the way in which we use data within Wales as well. Because what the English system doesn’t have is it doesn’t have a genuinely integrated national approach, which we do have here. So, that means we’re going to be able to roll out a national approach to pathology, which can’t happen in England because they’ve got so many different bodies getting in the way of how they will make different choices.Now, without getting into the party politics of how they’ve managed to reach that point, in the system in Wales it’s a genuine competitive advantage for us. What we’ll need to be better at, not just over the next few years, but over the next decade and more, is our ability to make national choices with only 10 organisations in the health field—the health board and trusts and then the Government with them as well—and how we actually get alongside people to make those choices. Because we’ve already seen a range of pharmaceutical players investing in Wales as a choice, because of the environment that we are creating, and because we’re able to have a conversation that recognises the potential without compromising on our values. That’s where we need to be as well. So, when I have conversations over at the life sciences hub, people are genuinely positive about making choices to move some of their investments into Wales because of that. But that is a point of difference to what takes place in these areas. I recognise you’ve mentioned about Cambridge, as opposed to these are areas for us to take advantage of. I’d be more than happy, once we’ve actually settled on the final stage for the strategy, in response to the consultation, to be able to give more detail on the specific areas within the life sciences sector more broadly that we expect to target and gain real benefit from.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. The fields of genomics and precision medicine are the key to winning the war on cancer and key to the future of our healthcare. I’m therefore very pleased to support and greatly welcome the Government’s genomics and precision medicine strategy. When we look at lung cancer, for example, which accounts for a quarter of all cancer deaths in Wales, traditional medicines are not very effective. By targeting the specific genetic mutation with precision medicine we can increase survival rates, particularly in non-small-cell lung cancers.The Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry and Cancer Research UK have been leading the calls for a Welsh strategy for stratified or precision medicine for a number of years, and it’s great news that we finally have one. I, together with my party, will work with you in order to ensure that this strategy is successful, and, in that spirit, I have just a few questions about how the strategy can be implemented.Cabinet Secretary, the strategy highlights the need to ensure appropriate data sharing for the service development and research. What discussions have you had with your colleagues across the UK about how best we can share data to improve research and development whilst protecting individual patient information? Moving forward, new innovative treatments are key to the success of the strategy. Cabinet Secretary, how can you ensure that there is joined-up thinking with regard to the appraisal of these new, novel treatments? How will you ensure that the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee, the all-Wales medical genetic service, the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group, and, where appropriate, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, work closely with the pharmaceutical industry? Finally, Cabinet Secretary, how will you ensure adoption and uptake of clinical and clinical genetics services across Wales, and how will success be monitored and assessed?I thank you once again for your statement and for bringing forward this strategy, which will help improve how we develop and how we deliver health treatments in future. Diolch yn fawr.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for those comments and questions. I think it’s useful, when we talk of precision medicine, to understand that, in the past, we thought there’d be big, blockbuster drugs or treatments to deliver a wide-scale improvement across the whole population or across whole groups of people. We understand more and more that that’s unlikely to be the way in which medicine develops. A range of those apparent blockbuster drugs haven’t been as effective as we would have wanted them to be, in addition to us then finding different uses for them as well. This is about understanding how we more precisely have a more individualised approach to diagnostic certainty and then treatment choices as well.I think the data sharing comments—it builds on the questions and comments from Angela Burns. Look, I don’t have direct ministerial conversations on this particular topic with other colleagues across the Governments in the UK, but there are Government-to-Government conversations about where we are. There is already an element of collaboration. The fact that we’re actively engaged in the 100,000 Genomes Project with colleagues in England is a really important marker, and also those wider research conversations that take place outside the national health service, as well as within the NHS, are a marker of the fact that these are active conversations that take place on how we share data to the best possible effect.But it’s also, as I say, going back to Lee Waters’s point, about how we make sure that the real competitive advantages that we potentially have here in Wales are properly exploited and taken advantage of, both for our economic benefit but, again, not compromising on the values that we wish to have about the way in which patient data are used and how we want the health service to be run.On your point about the appraisal of new developments, we’ll make sure that there is a proper, rigorous appraisal process, both in commissioning terms through WHSCC, but also, as new treatments and new therapies are developed, they’ll all need to go through a process to understand whether they offer genuine value in terms of both financially for us as taxpayers, for what we are paying for, but also for the individual citizen and their treatment choices available to them and their healthcare professionals that they will be understanding and making choices with. So, that will still be part of the process.There’s no suggestion that, actually, we’re running along the track of saying if this comes from precision medicine then all those other indicators about effectiveness and cost effectiveness go out of the window—they won’t. It goes back to the points that Rhun ap Iorwerth was making, though. There is a potential for cost saving here, and a potential for real health gains to be made, but we always need to understand, when those indications are available to us that we have a new potential treatment option, how do we properly appraise it to make sure we’re not gearing ourselves up and spending lots of money in a way that is neither wise nor prudent.And, on your broader point about big pharma, I think I tried to do this in responding to the points made by Lee Waters. There is an adult conversation to continue to be had that should lead to different investment choices, investing in different parts of Wales, where there’s a real advantage to be gained—so, real economic opportunity, real health gains to be made, and an area where I really do think Wales has a good story to tell, and I hope, in the future, we’ll be reporting on active and real progress that we’ll continue to make with and for citizens and the health service here in Wales.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

7. 7. Statement: Update on Superfast Broadband

The next item on the agenda is the statement by the Minister for Skills and Science on the update on superfast broadband. I call on the Minister for Skills and Science, Julie James, to introduce the statement.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Today, I want to provide you with an update on our Superfast Cymru project and progress towards a successor project. The current Superfast Cymru project continues to make good progress. To the end of March 2017, BT has told us that more than 645,000 premises have been given access to fast-fibre broadband by the Superfast Cymru project. BT has confirmed that sufficient premises are currently in build to realise its contractual commitment to provide access to superfast broadband delivering 30 Mbps download speeds to around 690,000 premises ahead of contract closure on 31 December this year. Also, additional premises will also be able to access speeds of between 24 Mbps and 30 Mbps. I can further report that market information indicates that the commercial deployment of superfast services has also exceeded forecasts, yielding additional premises beyond our intervention area that can now access superfast broadband services. Members will be pleased to note the progress that fixed wireless provider Airband has made in delivering our contract to extend broadband access to numerous business parks across Wales. I am pleased to confirm that this deployment is now complete and covers a verified footprint of around 2,000 business premises across north and south Wales.Our programme for government, ‘Taking Wales Forward’, is clear about our ambition to offer fast and reliable broadband to every property in Wales. As I have outlined in previous statements, we have already embarked on the preparatory work necessary to establish a successor broadband investment project. The new project will be underpinned by a public sector budget of around £80 million, which will in turn leverage private sector match funding to further extend broadband coverage to the hardest to reach premises across Wales by 2020.We launched an open market review in November to establish, on a premises-by-premises basis, where superfast broadband has been delivered to date and where the market plans to invest over the next three years. We also began a series of industry engagement events in December to help shape and inform the future intervention area and procurement strategy. We intend to begin the next stage of the procurement process in September. The open market review process has yielded a list of over 98,000 premises that cannot currently access superfast broadband, and where telecommunications companies have no plans to reach them in the next three years.Throughout this open market review process and our ongoing engagement with industry, we have invested considerable effort in improving the quality of the data that underpins our understanding of where the broadband gaps are across Wales. We are seeking to move from the postcode level data that we have relied on previously to data that can identify the broadband status of individual premises. We also adopted a cautious approach and tended to include premises, rather than exclude them, where there is doubt as to whether some locations should be classed as eligible premises. This means that some premises have been included that may not have been under previous open market reviews. We now need to test this data through consultation.Today, I am launching a four-week public consultation on the results of the open market review. We are keen to hear the views of both the telecoms industry and residents and business owners on whether any further premises should be included, or whether any premises currently on the list should be excluded. To support this, the data available on our website will be at a very granular level. I encourage everyone afflicted by poor broadband to ensure that their individual premises are identified correctly on the map. I encourage Assembly Members and local authorities to apply their local knowledge to help ensure that this data is robust and accurate.The consultation will help us to further refine the list of unconnected premises. Given the scale of the numbers involved, inevitably, the list of premises remaining will not be perfect, but the more responses we receive, the more comprehensive the list will be. To help respondents locate individual premises, an interactive map is available on the Welsh Government website. I would, therefore, ask that all Members share the list as widely as possible, and I will ensure that Members have the web address. The results of the public consultation will help to determine the procurement strategy, both in terms of the number and location of potential bidding lots, and whether any prioritisation criteria should be included. There will be further engagement with the industry and key stakeholders over the summer to refine our procurement approach. We intend to be in a position to invite formal tenders to deliver the new project in September, with the project commencing in early 2018.Through this consultation period, I am keen to ensure that all views are heard. If there are communities that have an interest in driving their own solutions, I want to hear from them. If there are views on how we should lot the procurement, I want to hear them. And if there are views on how we should prioritise or target the funding, I want to hear those too.It is clear to me that in parallel to the work set out above, our broadband voucher schemes will continue to offer a vital lifeline to homes and businesses. I am pleased to confirm that these schemes will remain, and will adjust and evolve to ensure that they remain relevant. I am pleased to announce today that in response to feedback from businesses, we have adjusted the terms and conditions of our ultrafast connectivity voucher to encompass a broader range of options. This change will introduce greater flexibility and will appeal to businesses that need assistance with construction and installation charges for mid-range broadband products, rather than switching to more high-end leased line products.I am committed to achieving our ambitions in ‘Taking Wales Forward’ to offer fast, reliable broadband to every property in Wales. Diolch.

Russell George AC: I would like to thank the Minister for her statement today, and to say that the Superfast Cymru project has undoubtedly improved the availability of fibre broadband across Wales, and this is very much to be welcomed. However, it is undeniable that the Welsh Government have failed to deliver on their 2011 commitment to—and I quote—ensure that‘all residential premises and businesses in Wales have access to next generation broadband by 2015.’Paragraph 5.3.2 of the original Superfast Cymru contract states that a minimum of 90 per cent of all premises in the contract intervention area are capable of having access to broadband services at a minimum of 30 Mbps. By my reckoning, the 98,000 premises that you have identified as not being able to access superfast broadband in your statement today represents over 12 per cent of premises—a clear failure to meet the 90 per cent target. So, can I ask the Minister for clarity and to confirm what percentage of premises can actually receive superfast speeds?The original open market review conducted by Mott MacDonald identified 45,000 premises in Wales that would not benefit from the project. Your statement today appears to be saying that this has now grown to 98,000—over double the original number. So, I would be grateful if you could explain why the figure has doubled and provide a full list of premises that are outside the scope of the project so that households and businesses that will definitely miss out can make contingency plans and alternative arrangements. If BT ultimately fails to meet its contractual obligations, are you expecting to receive clawback funding for these missed targets? If so, how much?I also have to say that I am sceptical at the approach that sees the Government and BT count premises passed as a way of assessing who can receive fibre broadband. I’ve received reports of insufficient capacity in superfast broadband enabled areas for residents to connect to the network, meaning that, even though the network technically passed the premises, residents are unable to procure a service. So, I would be grateful if you could outline what you are doing to rectify these capacity issues that are preventing people from accessing fibre broadband that has been provided at a cost to the public purse.The project is also still plagued, I’d say, with communication issues, which see residents being told one month that they’ll have access to fibre broadband by a certain date, only to be told a few weeks later that they won’t receive it at all. This is unacceptable and I would like assurances from you, Minister, today, that the successor scheme has a contractual obligation built into it that will see an improvement in public communications. You mentioned in your statement that communities can drive forward their own solutions. Well, they can’t; not if they’re being told insufficient information.Turning to the target for superfast take-up, in previous statements, you’ve said that the Welsh Government is now placing a greater emphasis on demand stimulation, but there’s no mention of this today in your statement. So, will you therefore confirm: what is the current take-up of fibre broadband in the intervention area? Given the fact that it’s in the Welsh Government’s interest, I’d say, to aggressively promote take-up as a result of benefitting from gain share, are you intending on revising upwards the woefully low take-up target of 50 per cent by 2024?Finally, you referred to the broadband voucher scheme and said that these schemes will be adjusted to provide additional flexibility. This, I have to say, is to be welcomed, as the ultrafast connectivity voucher scheme has come, I would say, under some criticism for it being disproportionately focused on high-end products and having insufficient flexibility—an issue I raised with you, I know, some 18 months ago. So, I would be grateful if you could provide additional detail on how the voucher scheme will be adapted for the successor scheme and confirm that the successor scheme will also have a focus on upload speeds as well as download speeds.

Julie James AC: Well, that was quite a comprehensive list of things. We sent a consultation document out, which I hope all Members have received, and that has a web link in it to an interactive map. If you go on to that map, which I hope at least some Members will have had the opportunity to do already, you’ll be able to see that you can go down to individual premises level. And there’s an icon on the top of each individual premises that says what we think is happening in that particular building. So, you should be able to see whether it’s a square, a triangle or a red dot, or whatever, and there’s a key along the side of it that tells you what those symbols mean: more than one provider, only one provider, only wireless, and so on. We’re very, very keen to ensure that that information is as accurate as possible, so we really would like to get as wide a consultation as possible on that. So, for those of you who have constituents who’ve written to me, or you’ve written to me about groups of people or communities, I’d be really grateful if you’d check the maps to make sure that the information matches what you understand to be the case.In terms of some of the other questions, on the number of premises, the contractual commitment for BT is about the number of premises; it was never a percentage. The percentage that was talked about in 2011 was the percentage of premises available in Wales in 2011. I mean, quite clearly, a lot more premises have been built since 2011 to now, so you would never have expected the number to stay the same. Indeed, that’s one of the issues that several Members in the Chamber have highlighted, because there was a big issue in the open market review about new-build premises afterwards. They weren’t included, and that’s been a constant problem, and I’m expecting to have to address that.The other thing is that the way that the mapping has been done is a lot more accurate. I’ve already checked my own constituency area this morning, just out of interest, and you can immediately see that some of the premises identified are statues, for example, and I’m pretty sure they won’t want to be broadband enabled. Others are: there’s a reservoir identified in my constituency, which I don’t think needs broadband, although I could check with Welsh Water as to whether they have some kind of service that they might need at the reservoir and so on. So, the mapping is a great deal more accurate than it was in 2011, but it’s not as accurate as we’d like it to be and we’d very much like information back from you about the accuracy or otherwise of that. There’s absolutely no point in us trying to get all the way up a track to a barn if, actually, nobody lives in it, for example.That takes me onto the next thing, which is that we have put a great deal more money into demand stimulation. The current take-up is around 35 per cent. BT, as you know, estimated it to be 21 per cent, and we get a gain share for everything over that. It’s running at somewhere between 31 and 38 per cent, but the average is about 35 per cent at the moment, and as you’d expect, that’s going up all the time. It’s more for fibre to the cabinet than fibre to the premises at the moment, but that’s because the fibre-to-the-premises build has only very recently really ramped up. So, we’re very happy that the take-up exceeds the limit that BT set, because we’re getting a good gain share from that, but obviously the higher it climbs, the more money we get and so I’d be more than anxious to talk to you all about ways that you think you can stimulate demand in your local areas. We’re trying to do it nationally. I’m writing out to every single premises we think has got superfast asking them to take it up and so on.I’m very interested in looking at communities of interest, as well. We have a completely open book here and I really would be very grateful to AMs who would come back to me about this. Should we try to target all the remaining farmers? Should we try to target all the remaining businesses? Should we try to target only those people who indicate to us they’d actually buy it? Some of these premises will be very expensive to get to. It would be sad to spend the money to get to them, only to find that the homeowner has no intention whatsoever of taking up the offer. It’s a genuinely open consultation, I really don’t know how we should prioritise it. We’re unlikely to actually get fibre cable to every premises in Wales. Clearly, that would be prohibitively expensive for some, so some will have to have alternative technology there. The voucher scheme will continue to be available to those people who are very unlikely to ever get fibre broadband. I’m afraid, if you live 14 miles up a track and you’re the only premises up there, it’s most unlikely to be economically efficient for us to do that—we’ll probably assist with a satellite or some such.So, I am genuinely asking you what the best way of doing this actually is. If we have whole communities who’d like to have wireless, for example—so they’d like to have the broadband provided to a community centre, and then the whole village or community could be covered by a wireless signal instead of wired to each premise—we’re very happy to consider that. It’s one of the reasons we’ve adjusted the voucher scheme, so that communities can apply together to do that. As you know, it’s individual at the moment. There are other adjustments—Russell, you mentioned the ultrafast thing; we know that some businesses don’t want to go all the way to 100, but they need more than 30 and so on. Hefin David, actually—he’s not in the Chamber—has raised that with me several times, so have you, and so has David Rees. Clearly, a lot of businesses want that medium product that we’re looking at. So, there’s a wealth of things that we can do.In terms of capacity issues in the network, we don’t pay BT when the cabinet is passed, we pay them when individual premises are passed. They get paid for the number of premises. So, if you think that we’ve accepted a premises, and, actually, they’re not getting it, do let me know because we can adjust that backwards. But I assure you, it’s on individual premises. I’m not saying, ‘Cabinet 16 is enabled, and therefore all the premises connected to it are getting superfast’, because they most certainly are not.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Julie James AC: We will be working with BT as part of this process—they’re going to be bidding for it like anybody else, I’m sure—about the best way to enable some extra capacity, and we continue to have the difficulty of people at the end of a long copper wire on an FTTC connection, and we’ll need to look carefully at how we can enable those to get broadband connections and come up with a solution that suits most of those communities to the best value of the public purse.The ‘have access to’ commitment is exactly that. We continue to have a voucher scheme that allows people to access broadband. It doesn’t say it will be free and it doesn’t say that it will be fibre, because that is not deliverable. So, for some premises, ‘have access to’ means that we will share the cost of it with them, but every premises in Wales is eligible for the voucher scheme if they can’t get the fibre broadband network out to them, and that’s our definition of ‘have access to’. We can argue the semantics of it, and I probably think it could have been more felicitously worded, but that’s what that commitment meant, and it’s still what it means now.We’re never going to get to 100 per cent of every single premises in Wales having fibre-optic broadband. It just is not economic for that. But what we are going to do is ensure that all of those who want it can access it through one means or another.

Dai Lloyd AC: May I thank the Minister for her statement on superfast broadband? It’s true to say that— [Interruption.]

Julie James AC: Apologies.

Dai Lloyd AC: No problem at all. It’s true to say that since 2012 there’s been significant investment from European Union funds and the Welsh Government in broadband infrastructure in Wales, and so it looks as if the Welsh Government is going to reach that target of 690,000 premises by the end of the year.The speed of broadband is vitally important for connectivity, as we’ve heard, and in terms of economic development across Wales, especially in our more rural areas. The House of Commons report, released in March this year, looks at broadband speeds across the United Kingdom and it shows that we need to close the gap between Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of the average broadband speed. The House of Commons report showed that the four slowest areas, on a ward level, for average broadband speeds in the United Kingdom are all in Wales, and that 65 per cent of the 20 slowest areas in the UK are also in Wales.Since the beginning of the current broadband scheme, it’s clear that some areas and homes won’t receive superfast broadband through Superfast Cymru. Access Broadband Cymru, as we’ve heard, has provided broadband for a number of homes and hard-to-reach sites, and Airband has achieved improvements in a number of business parks, but it’s still true to say that there is a great deal to do in some parts of Wales.As a party, we support the work that is being done to develop the broadband scheme to follow on from this current scheme. We’re pleased to see that the review of the open market is based on location and site, rather than postcode, which is wiser methodology that will lead to a more solid dataset. In terms of a question, you’ve talked a great deal in response to questions already, saying that you’ll be encouraging anyone out there who is affected by poor broadband access to ensure that they do respond during the consultation phase, and I’ve heard what you’ve already said on that. But to do that on a personal level for constituents out there who have problems, they will need to know about what happens now—to know about these developments and so on. How exactly are you going to go about promoting the consultation, and do you intend to raise awareness online, through radio or the press, for example?In conclusion, it’s important to note that digital technology, like everything else, is changing quickly. Already, Ofcom has noted in its strategic review on digital communication, that the United Kingdom as a whole is failing compared to world leaders such as Japan, Spain and South Korea, in terms of developing services for broadband that are ultrafast. And the question that stems from that of course: I’d like to hear your opinion on how you see the Welsh Government closing the gap with the rest of the world in terms of ultrafast broadband over the coming years. Thank you.

Julie James AC: In terms of the average speeds across Wales, I think the report you’re referring to is a year or so old now, but I absolutely accept that those premises that haven’t got broadband through Superfast Cymru or through the commercial roll-out are obviously still in whatever position they were in before. That’s what this successor scheme is about: it’s to address exactly that problem.Wales has a very unique—I'm sure I've quoted this to Members before: Wales's population is spread out right across Wales, and so, to get signal to Wales, you need an awful lot more infrastructure than you do almost anywhere else in the UK. So, in Scotland, for example, the population's considerably more compact, and so it’s easier to get big services to them. So, we have a specific problem, and that’s why I’m asking all Members to help me to get the best information possible back for this map. So, if all of you use your local knowledge—we’re obviously going to be asking local authority partners to do this as well, and business partners and everybody who has written in to us, and we have a comms policy that obviously will include digital comms and so on. But, frankly, if you haven’t got superfast already, then you’re going to be very annoyed if we do a digital comms programme, because you’re not going to be able to upload the GIFs. So, we will be writing out to premises we know may have a difficulty. We’ll also be contacting communities of interest, so the farming unions and other people who have contacted us from business organisations and so on, asking them for feedback from their communities of interest. But there are geographical communities as well that might benefit from a combined response. I visited a couple of very good projects recently in the Llŷn peninsula, where a wireless broadband signal to a community hall has enabled an entire area. Indeed, the Llywydd will permit me in saying that some of them were in Ceredigion as well, and we’ve had some conversations about just that.So, I’m very anxious to understand what the best way of spending this money is to get to the maximum number of premises as fast as possible. One size will not fit all. So, we’re not going to let a single contract to finish the rest of it off because, actually, that isn’t going to work. We’re going to need specific solutions for specific communities. It’s not a small undertaking, but we’re very determined to get there.In terms of ultrafast, there’s a big ultrafast trial—I’m sure the Member knows—going on in Swansea at the moment, and obviously we’ll be looking to see how that works, and to see what its roll-out capabilities are. What’s really great about the superfast network is that, although we’ve specified 30 Mbps, actually, the average speeds that we know are being obtained over the network are about 80 Mbps; so, not far off ultrafast, which is normally thought to be 100 Mbps. But, indeed, this is going to be a constant problem for the world in updating these networks all the time, and it’s one of the things we need to keep in mind as we go forward into the future.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Minister, I welcome today’s statement on the Superfast Cymru project and the progress towards the successor project. I think, in this day and age, it’s right that the Welsh Government’s ambition is to deliver fast and reliable broadband to every property in Wales, and I’m pleased to note the progress it’s made. Given the amount of correspondence I’ve had from constituents and, as a consequence, you’ve had from me, I’ll be encouraging active participation in the public consultation at a local level.But I just have a specific couple of questions with regard to superfast access and new-build developments. I know, in your previous response to my colleague Russell George, you said you expect them to have to address this. I know that many residents, when they move into new developments—perhaps myself included—expect that they will be able to access fibre broadband and then find that they can’t, despite developers being able to get connection for places with developments of over 30 or more houses. I’m aware that the reasons behind this can vary, with larger developments being built in phases or the developers not informing Openreach ahead of the building work commencing. So, Minister, will there be steps to improve co-ordination between developers and Openreach, or the providers on this, because it is part of the consultation and, in addition—? Today, I think we acknowledge we’re at a point when access to superfast broadband is actually an essential utility now. Perhaps consideration could be given to an obligation that ensures that it should be part of the initial infrastructure in future for any future new-build developments.

Julie James AC: The Member makes an excellent point with the last point there. The issue around universal service obligation has been one that’s exercised us for some time. We put a lot of pressure on the UK Government to acknowledge that this is a utility and not a luxury. I say this a lot to everyone. When we started this process, we used to market Wales as, ‘Come to Wales and get offline’, and now that is quite clearly not something that anybody ever wants to do, and it’s gone from a positive to a really serious minus. So, we’ve been pressurising the UK Government for quite some time to put a universal service obligation in, but also to treat this as a utility, because a lot of the problems that people are having in accessing superfast broadband are because their properties are stuck behind a piece of land that we can’t get across, and BT is left trying to negotiate a wayleave, or whatever, across the land. Unlike a utility, they have no right to cross the land and then pay an appropriate amount. They have to actually negotiate it. So, it’s perfectly possible that somebody could actually block off a whole village by simply not letting them cross their land, and that’s clearly unacceptable in the modern age.In terms of the new builds, the Member has been very assiduous in writing to me about a number of the problems in her constituency. We’ve been talking to colleague Cabinet Ministers about the various difficulties in planning law, and about what we can do through section 106 agreements to ensure that councils put obligations on builders, where they’re building more than a certain number of properties, to connect to the superfast network as part of the obligation on the builder when they build an estate. But, we don’t have any way of enforcing that, other than through those obligations. So, we’re in active consideration about how we can do that, and in terms of the actual build itself, of actually making sure that the house itself is capable of it. One of the big problems we have with modern technology is that the more insulated a house is, the more like a Faraday cage it is, and the less penetrable it is by mobile phone signals and broadband signals and so on. So, it’s a little bit of a conundrum. It’s about if you’re going to have very high levels of insulation and eco-sustainability in your house—which I, for one, am very much part of—then you want to make sure that that house is wired, because the Wi-Fi signal isn’t going to go through that insulation terribly easily. So, it’s about trying to get those building regulations and planning regulations lined up. It’s also about pressurising the UK Government into getting the service obligation right, and into acknowledging that this is not a luxury at all—it is now an essential, the same as water, electricity and so on are for people. Indeed, I think that, for some young people, it is probably more of an essential than some of those other things. So, I would be very grateful, Hannah, if you could write to me with specific areas. If you could check the interactive map, then we can talk about particular solutions for some of the estates in your area. And, obviously, that goes for all Members as well who have the same problem.

Okay. Superfast questions from now on. [Laughter.] Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Thank you for your statement. I am a little bit concerned, actually, at the number of properties—I hadn’t realised it was going to be quite so high—that were going to be outside the current scheme. Many of those properties, as you will know from our correspondence in the past, are in my constituency. Some of them are paying through the nose, frankly, for satellite broadband services, which are very, very expensive and pretty unreliable for those particular families. So, we are facing this digital disadvantage, and I’m very concerned about that. You have given this commitment to having a look at the ultrafast connectivity voucher system for businesses. I know that we’ve got the Access Broadband Cymru scheme as well, which also encourages the highest speed take-up. You haven’t said whether you’re considering looking again at how that operates and neither have you said whether you’re prepared to look at allowing people who were early beneficiaries of that scheme, perhaps five or six years ago, when the criteria were just to get up to 2 Mbps, and whether those people can now reapply under the new scheme in order to take advantage of the higher speeds that might be available. Perhaps you could just comment on that.I noted also with interest your reference to the fact that some landowners have been obstructive. This is a regular excuse that I’m hearing from BT Openreach, but of course every time I ask them which landowners, they’re unable to tell me. It’s because, frankly, it is just an excuse in some cases from them, and there aren’t actually any obstructions at all from local landowners. In fact, when I’ve tried to nail them down on this in my own constituency, it’s been quite clear that there’s been no problem at all with landowners; they just haven’t bothered making sufficient effort to contact them or their land agents.Just one final point as well: you mentioned the permitted development rights that many of the utilities companies already enjoy. Of course, the planning system is entirely devolved here in Wales. There’s no reason whatsoever why the Welsh Government couldn’t extend permitted development rights to telecoms operators. I hope very much that you will, in order that we can overcome some of these problems. This is something that should have happened many years ago, frankly, and we shouldn’t still be talking about these things today. What we need is some concerted action on this, if our constituents—people like mine in Moelfre and Llanarmon yn Ial and other places—are going to get access to these sorts of services, which frankly are basic services now, particularly for businesses, but not only businesses, for families too, in terms of their entertainment systems and the learning opportunities that the internet provides.

Julie James AC: I completely accept the point the Member is making about how essential the services are. If the Member has specific instances with BT where they are making excuses, as he puts it, which have been proven not to be the case, I would be most interested to know the details. I am aware of specific instances of landowners being very difficult, actually, but it is always interesting to understand the local picture.In terms of the voucher scheme, we’ve already adjusted the voucher schemes once, so you can already apply for a voucher if you can get a step change if you’ve already got 2 Mbps and so on. We will be looking at that again. I apologise profusely for my various problems, but I’m due to come and visit your constituency, so I’d be very glad to have a really good chat with you about exactly what it is. That’s exactly what we’re looking for for the second project—to look at specific problems that we might be able to solve in a particular way. The voucher system can be adapted to suit whatever it is, or indeed we can adapt a lot of this new contract to do that. There are a number of different ways that we can do it. The voucher scheme is there to assist people who want to go faster than the project and to get to the people whom it is just never going to be economic to get to. But I don’t think you’re talking about very many of those. So, we can have a good conversation about how to lot the next contract, which might be very specific to those.In terms of the premises, I think I've already said that, and if you look at the interactive map, you'll see what I mean. First of all, we've had a lot of new build and other premises over the time. There's no doubt at all that GIS mapping systems have improved immeasurably since 2011—so, we've just got better maps of it. But there's also no doubt at all that some of the premises on there are not premises that you'd want to broadband enable, and I don't know what the difference is. As I said anecdotally, I've looked at my own patch, and there are quite clearly some anomalies. There will be others. There may be premises that are missing that should be on there but aren't on there. So, we are very reliant on the information back. It will only be as good as the information we get back. So, we’re relying on the GIS system at the moment, and that's not absolutely perfect. But there's no doubt at all that it's much better than it was in 2011, which does account for some of the difference. So, the new build, the difference in mapping techniques, and the fact that we've gone down to premises level, and not postcode level, is making the difference, really, on that.And I think, in terms of the infrastructure bit—I know the Llywydd just said broadband questions—the difficulty is that it's starting to get very difficult to distinguish between telecoms and broadband, and, as the Gs go up, then obviously a lot of people access broadband via mobile phone. But I'm not talking about masts here; I'm talking about digging a cable under the ground, and that's different. It's not just the permitted—. You have to have a wayleave and you have to have permission to maintain it and so on. But we are talking with planning colleagues about changes. I've had a mobile phone forum to discuss exactly this, and we'll be announcing a mobile phone plan very soon. It's beginning to be impossible to discuss the two separately, even though mobile is not devolved. So, you know, there are some complications there, but we are in the process of having exactly those discussions about planning. And, as I’ve said in this Chamber before, that will be a balance between getting the service to people and not covering our very beautiful countryside with a mast every 50 feet, which nobody wants.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, I wanted to raise matters that I know you are aware of, because we've corresponded about them, and that is the issue of the AB company failure in the Goldcliff area in my constituency, because that failure has left residents without internet access, which, as we can all imagine, has created a great deal of problems and frustration for them. There is a temporary solution in terms of infrastructure being provided by AB together with British Telecom, but, as yet, there is no date for BT installing fibre, even though, for some time now, they have told local residents that that was imminent. But there is no date for the provision that would allow residents to access that fibre. So, that frustration is lingering and has been the case for quite some time.The other very real frustration is that there is no internet service provider to take over AB Internet services on a permanent basis at the moment. As I say, I know you are aware of these issues, Minister, and I wonder if there's anything you can say today as to what the solutions will be.

Julie James AC: Yes, and I'm very grateful to John Griffiths for raising the detail that he has raised with me over this. It's very frustrating. My information at the moment is that all of the services that AB were providing have now been restored, albeit with temporary fixes, and that the administrators have sent out information packs to prospective purchasers and are obviously hopeful that they'll be able to sell the company as a going concern onwards. But I don't have any more information than that.Unfortunately, of course, you're not in the intervention area, so you’re reliant on the commercial roll-out, and that's very—. I mean, the irony of this is my whole constituency isn't in the intervention area, and I have people with no broadband services, but, where a commercial operator has said that they are going to provide service, then we can't go there because that would breach the state aid intervention rules. So, I can't do very much more than sympathise with the difficulty. I'm happy to work with the Member in talking to BT about their commercial roll-out and whether we can help with that, but I have no actual intervention power over it. If you’ve got any more information about the services provided by AB Internet, or indeed any other Member who's got AB Internet coverage in their patch—there are a number of others—if you could let me know, then at least we can ensure that there’s a temporary fix in place for some of those people.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I think the Minister knows I've kept her quite busy, as has my own caseworker who is designated now to broadband issues. I know that he's been keeping me on my toes and making sure that we really try to find out where those problems are and help to improve their connectivity. Now, clearly, you know, we'd welcome a successor project, but, you know, in your statement, you do say that it’s a footprint of circa 2,000 business premises across north and south Wales. I’m pleased with the connectivity offered to businesses at business parks, but, for me, of course, in Aberconwy, I’ve got a lot of rural areas. How are we going to address those solitary, isolated properties? Many of my constituents in the Valleys are farmers, and they are really struggling now with all the online payments, and all the online data that are required of them. They simply cannot function now in their own industry.You talk about your programme for government, ‘Taking Wales Forward’—

I don’t think you need to re-read the Minister’s initial statement.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I’m not doing that.

Can you come to a question, please?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Forget it.

Minister, do you need to respond to anything?

Julie James AC: Well, just to say that the issues are very much the same. This is a rural programme, as everyone will know. We’re very reliant on being told the local information. Many Members have been assiduous in writing to me about their problems. It would be really great if you could interrogate the interactive map and make sure that the data on it are as accurate as it is possible for them to be. You have the contacts in your areas for all of your businesses, your local representative forums, the unions, and so on. Please get us that information back as soon as possible and we can take the project forward.

I thank the Minister

8. 8. Motion to Vary the Order of Consideration of Stage 3 Amendments to the Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Bill

The next item on our agenda is the motion to vary the order of consideration of the Stage 3 amendments to the Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Bill. The Cabinet Secretary has notified me that he does not intend to move the motion under this item. I call on him to confirm that to the Chamber.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I do not wish to move the motion this afternoon. Unfortunately, an error in the motion has been identified, which, if agreed, would lead to technical problems organising the Stage 3 amendments. I apologise, of course, to Members for the late identification of these technical problems. The motion is therefore not moved this afternoon.

That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:07.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Michelle Brown: What assessment has the First Minister made of the impact that last week's UK General Election will have on the Welsh Government's education policy?

Mark Drakeford: Our education priorities are set out in ‘Taking Wales Forward’ as it is a devolved matter.

Nick Ramsay: Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's policies for supporting farming?

Mark Drakeford: We are committed to safeguarding our rural communities and by working with stakeholders we want to ensure we get the best possible outcome for our farming, land management, food and environment sectors from the process of exiting the EU.

Dai Lloyd: Will the First Minister make a statement on transport spend in South Wales West?

Mark Drakeford: The national transport finance plan, published in July 2015, sets out investment for transport and infrastructure and services for 2015-20 across all parts of Wales.

Lee Waters: Will the First Minister commit to a review of the Innovation Wales strategy?

Mark Drakeford: Given the nature of innovation, inevitably the strategy is constantly evolving and has been designed to be flexible to the fast-changing world in which we live.

Hannah Blythyn: What is the Welsh Government doing to improve domestic fire safety in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Dwelling fires have fallen by almost a third since responsibility for fire and rescue services was devolved in 2005. Casualties in such fires have more than halved. We will continue to support our fire services to sustain this improvement.

Llyr Gruffydd: Will the First Minister make a statement on health services in rural areas in North Wales?

Mark Drakeford: I would expect Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board assess the health needs in its area and plan services that meet the needs of the local population, including people living in rural areas.